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FYR Macedonia
Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia
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Posted: 2005-08-02 11:15:32
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Beautiful woman there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted: 2005-08-02 16:45:01
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Snap out of it gelfen al least get your facts right before posting.
Macedonia is a Greek name & Ancient Macedonia always was a part of Greece just like Athens, Sparta, Thebes, and hundreds of others. They were considered Hellenes(Greeks) by the rest of the Hellenes and competed in the Olympic Games(Only Greeks could participate).
They were only called barbarians as an insult.
If Macedonians weren't Greek then answer these few questions.
Why are ALL ancient MAcedonian artifacts, coins etc written only in Greek?
Why did ALexander The Great spread ONLY the Hellenic culture in the lands he conquered?
Why do today's so called "Macedonians" in FYROM speak a Slavic language? - Slavs arriven in Europe in 600AD, hundreds of years after the Greeks were already there.
Macedonian not being Greek is like Tasmania not being Australian cause some of us consider them backward.
Learn some history not Slavic-FYROM propoganda.
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Posted: 2005-08-31 04:57:58
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@redback: i really don't want to get into an argument over this. i gather from some of your other posts that you are of greek descent, so there is practically no way i can win this argument. tbh i don't particularly care enough to try. suffice it to say that none of what i stated previously could be said to come from "macedonian" sources, and is considered fact by a vast majority of neutral historians - irrespective of the official position of the greek government.
the above notwithstanding, i will address a few points:
They were considered Hellenes(Greeks) by the rest of the Hellenes and competed in the Olympic Games(Only Greeks could participate).
as i said, the ancient macedon
aristocracy were considered hellenic but the common people were not. it was only the aristocracy, and particularly royalty, who were allowed to participate in the olympic games. there are a number of ancient historians who considered the macedons to be a separate people, even if they were politically and militarily allied with ancient greece.
Why are ALL ancient MAcedonian artifacts, coins etc written only in Greek?
there is certainly a high degree of similarity between the languages because they derive from the probably same route, and coexisted for a long period, but there are a number of differences that cannot be reconciled with the greek language. the confusion about the exact relationship between ancient greek and ancient macedonian is due to the dirth of ancient macedonian artefacts.
Why did ALexander The Great spread ONLY the Hellenic culture in the lands he conquered?
because it was the premier culture at the time, and consisted of the most advanced scientific and philosophical thinking of the age. he was, after all, educated by hellenic scholars. there is a common misconception that hellenic and greek are interchangeable. while they are often used as such it is not strictly accurate.
Why do today's so called "Macedonians" in FYROM speak a Slavic language? - Slavs arriven in Europe in 600AD, hundreds of years after the Greeks were already there.
because languages evolve with time, and adapt to include the words and expressions of neighbouring peoples. additionally, the use of the macedonian language (however you want to define it) was outlawed by the yugoslavian and greek governments. incidentally it's not an entirely slavic language, and was recognised as an independent language by greek authorities as recently as the 1920s, which is interesting considering what i say below.
a few other points to ponder:
1. the view that macedonians and greeks are of like ethnicity is an almost purely 20th century phenomenon. in fact 18th and 19th century greeks considered the macedonians as former conquerors.
2. between 1913 and 1988 it was official greek government policy that the area now called macedonia, and the macedonian language, did not and had never existed. the area was only referred to as "northern greece", and it's inhabitants as greek. it was only the burgeoning rise of FYROM that prompted a shift in policy to one of "Macedonia is 4000 years of Greek history". i wonder how this latter claim could be true if it didn't exist pior to 1988.
3. to this day, the greek governement denies the existence of
any ethnic minorities within it's borders - be they macedonian, serbian, bulgarian, turkish, german, french, etc., and continues to deny them basic human rights. the only acknowledged minority is religious (the muslims of thrace).
anyway, i'm not going to argue because it's all a bit pointless. believe whatever you want.
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Posted: 2005-08-31 12:02:07
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I think this is a political thread.
I understand the first post as a greek claiming that Macedonia should be merged/absorbed with/by Greece.
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Posted: 2005-08-31 12:18:58
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LOL is this guy gelfen for real?
You don't wanna get into this, you don't care, there's no way you can win this argument cause I'm Greek etc etc then you post more missleading info?!
Not only the aristocracy were considered Hellenic but ALL Macedonians were considered their same kin. Yes there are historians who believe the opposite but there are even more historians who believe the turh. So which ones are right and why do you choose to believe the Slav version? Politically and militarily allied with Ancient greece? WTF you on about they WERE part of Ancient Greece.
Everything in Ancient Macedonia is currently found in the state of Greece, in Ancient greek. Sure the Macedonians had their Greek dialect but let me tell you as someone who speaks greek practically every different region of Greece has its own dialect, just like the Ancient times.
Yes believe it or not, MEGAS ALEXANDROS spread his OWN culture around the conquered lands not because it was the premier culture because it was his own. There are countless qoutes about Alexander quoting his own Greekness. He burnt down babylon(?) in retaliation of past Persian destruction of Athens - far from Pella, Macedonia, which is his birthplace.
So you reckon the Slavic-"Macedonian" language is not entirely Slavic?! LMFAO! Why don't you ask a Bulgarian if he understands "Macedonian"?
And finally, you think you know Greek history from reading FYROM propoganda sites or your Skopyian mates probably told you this one... Mate let me assure you, Northern Greece has A-L-W-A-Y-S been reffered to as MAKETHONIA(Macedonia). I should know my dad is from Northern Greece. I have old school textbooks with Macedonia being in Northern Greece printed way before 1988. How come my dad, and granddad know that Macedonia is in Northern Greece(NOT North OF Greece) and always has been in Northern Greece. The Greek government OFFICIALLY named the province Macedonia in 1988 but it's always been Macedonia. Just like Uluru & Ayers Rock.
Gelfen it's obvious your anti-Greekness clouds your judgment, You sound a bit smart so do the smart thing and look at BOTH sides' argument not just 50% of the story. You're probably the typical Aussie who laughed for years at Greece's preparations of the olympics then had a rude shock when they were so successful. Oh wait, apparently nobody went to them lol always have to find something to bag the greeks lol.
Anyway anybody reading this and who actually wants to find out the truth and what the conflict is about... I haven't got time to post all details but these websites are good because they just state facts, historicall evidence and common sense.
http://www.real.macedonia.gr/
http://www.greece.org/themis/macedonia/
http://www.macedonia.com/
Of course look at the Slavic FYROM sites like Gelfen has as well to understand their ridiculous arguments and then believe what you want to believe. Your ignorance is your problem not mine. At least LOOK at ALL FACTS, EVIDENCE before you make yourself an expert in this subject.
Krubach- Olla, No,Greece does not want any land from our tiny neigbour to the North. All we want for Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to do is to stop using the name Macedonia because it's already a Greek name and has been used by Greeks for thousands of years. They are not Greeks in FYROM they are Slavs. FYROM was called "Vardaska" until about 1944 when Tito renamed it Macedonia in order to claim Greek land in the future. in Imagine if Spain breaks up into several little states and a new state next to Portugal named them selves Lisbon and tried to claim Lisbons history as their own? I Know, stupid isn't it!!
[ This Message was edited by: Redback on 2005-08-31 14:15 ]
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Posted: 2005-08-31 15:03:49
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Bullseye!!!
I said it was politics...
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Posted: 2005-08-31 15:46:56
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.....And we have us a potential flame war!!
It's nearly as emotive as smoking, speaking of which.... think I might go have a crafty one
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Posted: 2005-08-31 16:11:40
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@krubach: i know - which is why i don't really want a part of it. unfortunately i also have a tendency to try correcting obvious fallacies (not everything redback said falls in that category, but more on that later).
@sammy: no flaming from me
for the record - i am not anti anything except anti-ignorance and anti-intolerance.
i will respond properly to redback's post later.
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Posted: 2005-09-01 00:36:45
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You guys are geniuses! How did you figure out that it's politics? LOL no shit, obviously it's about politics. What we have is a people with no identity trying to steal another people's identity & history. People are so missinformed about the Macedonian issue, they think Greece is the aggressor and wants to invade FYROM to take more land.
Nothing could be further from the truth! Greece is one of the most pacifist, peaceful nation on earth. Greece could invaded FYROM anytime it wanted but it has no desire to. We don't want their land, we don't want their people. On the contrary, FYROM believe Greece is occupying their land! Land which has been Hellenic since before Christ!They are a mixture of Serbs,Bulgarians & Albanians. Greece is actually helping FYROM and is their biggest investors. And all Greece asks for in return is to stop using the Hellenic name Macedonia and stop teaching false history in schools about territorial claims against Greece.
Gelfen why are you so interested in the issue if you have no Greek or Slav heritage? Are you studying history? If you're a nuetral person then you have to look at both sides. So before you respong, READ the links I gave earlier. Understand Greece's position on this issue. And stop posting lies about Greece.
Yes Greece recognises its minorities. It's a Muslim minoirty in Thrace numbering around 300,000. They are mostly Turkish origin, but there are also Gypie Muslims and a sizeable Pomak Muslim population. So they are recognised as Greek Muslims, not a minoirty. The 1923 Treaty of Lusuane dictates this. Other than them there are immigrants, people who have gone to Greece recently but not enough to establish a minority. Greece was around 98% Greek until recently but an influx of legal & illegal Albanians has probably brought it down to 92% Greek.
Oh also FYROM propagandists claim there are millions of "Slav Macedonians" misstreated in the Greek province of Macedonia. So being the founder of democracy, Greece has even let them "misstreated" Macedonians form & vote for their own party. Last count was 5000 in the last election. What's so unbelievable is not really the fact that such laughable claims on (Greek)Macedonia are happening, it's that there are people out there who actually believe them!!
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Posted: 2005-09-01 01:52:31
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