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@scotsboy
100% agree with your post (please run our country
)
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Posted: 2006-02-05 22:29:49
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On 2006-02-05 22:05:10, whizkidd wrote:
Atleast to distance mainstream Islam from these terrorists ideologies.
If moderate muslims say those are terrorists who blow up people, they should come forward and protest against these goons who are defaming Islam.
I don't think muslims need to justify or prove to anyone that they are a peacefull faith...a few band of killers does'nt represent respresent Islam in anyway shape or form,if people want to make any association then thats their problem...I hate the fact that somehow every muslim has to come and speak out against some nutter who beheads someone in the name of Islam in another country...you get sick and viloent people everywhere,in every faith and race its just the world we live in...I remember David Koresh from a from about 10 years ago who blew up a few hundred of his followers in the name of god and Jesus..no one blamed the christian religion for that did they?...or the Oklahoma bomber who killed 700 people i think,its just a random bunch of fanatics and nuts who commite these acts of murder.
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On 2006-02-05 22:05:10, whizkidd wrote:
And i dont think any damn reason is strong enough (not even the U.S invasion of Iraq) a reason to kill an innocent guy (whatever be his nationality or faith) in such a brutal manner. I can somewhat fathom the anger of the people who are against the U.S invasion of Iraq. But its not just Iraq, remember Daniel Pearl? He had nothing to do with Iraq.
Maybe so in the way we think...but like i mentioned these are desperate people doing desperate things,beheading is extreme so is when a U.S soilder blows down the door of some poor family and shoots the men women and even children...no speaks up about that do they?...Dont see anyone standing up against that in the west..so why should muslims stand up against beheadings...dont think thing should!
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On 2006-02-05 22:05:10, whizkidd wrote:
Where were these people when the Iraqis were suffering on the hands of Saddam. He's no saint either. Forget the 5000 kurds? Werent they Muslims? Or does the sentiments of Muslim hurt only whwen they're provoked by a non muslim? People talk about Abu Ghraib. It was a shameful act. Pathetic .. but have you seen Iraqi state videos of the execution of people? Seen videos of torture in iraqi prisons under Saddam? He practised all this as a part of his state policy... Not a single protest from the middle eastern region during all these.
No one has ever said the saddam was an angel.....but that again is another debate altogther..When it was convenient for the americans to use saddam against the Iranian's they funded and aided and armed him to the teeth,..oil was flowing everyone was happy america knew about what was going with Kurds back then aswell,yet they did nothing and watched on,while saddam was left to murder..History has proven america only comes into help when it suites them,the loss of life does'nt mean anything to them...Random acts of Torture goes on many countries not just Iraq,...heard of Zimbabwe,China,Cuba?...a few other south american countrys yet good old uncle sam watches on and does nothing because he has nothing to gain (yet) from these nationes...America has accepted recently that it to practices torture..thats rich coming from a country that trys to enforce their wacko democracy on countrys that dont want it.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 22:37:07
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On 2006-02-05 22:37:07, axxxr wrote:
I don't think muslims need to justify or prove to anyone that they are a peacefull faith...a few band of killers does'nt represent respresent Islam in anyway shape or form,if people want to make any association then thats their problem...I hate the fact that somehow every muslim has to come and speak out against some nutter who beheads someone in the name of Islam in another country...you get sick and viloent people everywhere,in every faith and race its just the world we live in...I remember David Koresh from a from about 10 years ago who blew up a few hundred of his followers in the name of god and Jesus..no one blamed the christian religion for that did they?...or the Oklahoma bomber who killed 700 people i think,its just a random bunch of fanatics and nuts who commite these acts of murder.
The issue isn't really about justification of faith, the majority of people realise that the terrible things we see are done by extremists and are not representative of Islam. However, when you have people marching through London to protest at a satirical cartoon and waving placards calling for people to be beheaded it simply reinforces the stereotype of Muslims being violent extremists.
No matter how offensive the cartoon might have been it was just a cartoon; no one was killed. To react to it in the violent manner we have seen will strike most Europeans as being completely over the top and unnecessary.
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Maybe so in the way we think...but like i mentioned these are desperate people doing desperate things,beheading is extreme so is when a U.S soilder blows down the door of some poor family and shoots the men women and even children...no speaks up about that do they?...Dont see anyone standing up against that in the west..so why should muslims stand up against beheadings...dont think thing should!
Let me get this straight, you are essentially saying that two wrongs make a right. In actual fact you will find that the Western media does cover such awful things as civilians killed by U.S. troops and furthermore you will find that many people do protest at such actions. Just because they are not storming embassies or calling for people to be killed does not make their protest any less valid.
Do we have to have someone protesting about something else before we raise an objection to something? That appears to be what you are saying. Whether people protest U.S. actions or not is no reason not to oppose the kidnap and beheading of innocent people.
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No one has ever said the saddam was an angel.....but that again is another debate altogther..When it was convenient for the americans to use saddam against the Iranian's they funded and aided and armed him to the teeth,..oil was flowing everyone was happy america knew about what was going with Kurds back then aswell,yet they did nothing and watched on,while saddam was left to murder..History has proven america only comes into help when it suites them,the loss of life does'nt mean anything to them...Random acts of Torture goes on many countries not just Iraq,...heard of Zimbabwe,China,Cuba?...a few other south american countrys yet good old uncle sam watches on and does nothing because he has nothing to gain (yet) from these nationes...America has accepted recently that it to practices torture..thats rich coming from a country that trys to enforce their wacko democracy on countrys that dont want it.
But here you are speaking of the American government. Most governmnets have been involved in things that their people would not consider good, that is not unique to America. It was the American public who protested against the Vietnam War, with at least one person immolating himself in protest.
Whether people in the U.S. protest or not is no barrier to other people protesting. Even if Americans did not protest against Saddam in the 1980s why didn't Saudis? Indonesians? Kuwaitis? It is very easy to single out someone or something for criticism, but such criticism of America can be applied to others, including Muslims.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 22:56:51
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On 2006-02-05 22:56:51, scotsboyuk wrote:
However, when you have people marching through London to protest at a satirical cartoon and waving placards calling for people to be beheaded it simply reinforces the stereotype of Muslims being violent extremists.
If you look at some of the previous posts you will see that a few members tried to give explanations as to why muslims are so angry and making threats with those placards....Well let me put to you another way to try and make people understand here what the so called cartoon which obviously means nothing to non-believers really means to muslims.Say for example if you had a close member of family whome you dearly loved and worshipped,idolised for the better word was no longer in this world and you have someone draw a cartoon image of him portraying him in a negative manner,I know its the right comparion but how would you feel about that?..Angry right?..you would be a saint if you stayed calm and ignored it....The other problem is after 9/11 and all the Islamphobia against muslims..muslims feel genuinly angry,and this was just the final straw Islamaphobia gone to far...I don't know about but understand the anger and pain muslims are going through at this time...people in the west have to be sensitive to muslims issues and no provoke the radical elements which unfortunately do exsist within muslims.
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On 2006-02-05 22:56:51, scotsboyuk wrote:
No matter how offensive the cartoon might have been it was just a cartoon; no one was killed. To react to it in the violent manner we have seen will strike most Europeans as being completely over the top and unnecessary.
Like i said maybe to it was just a cartoon but not to muslims...to them it was more than an Insult and bad one at that...I remember when Salman Rushdie wrote the satanic verses and the same thing happened then aswell,but seems like no one learns..hopefully this will be a lesson for all concerned and to learn from this,some lines should never be crossed.
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On 2006-02-05 22:56:51, scotsboyuk wrote:
Let me get this straight, you are essentially saying that two wrongs make a right. In actual fact you will find that the Western media does cover such awful things as civilians killed by U.S. troops and furthermore you will find that many people do protest at such actions. Just because they are not storming embassies or calling for people to be killed does not make their protest any less valid.
No of course two wrongs dont make a right,absolutely not..western media may cover such events but my point is that if western forces weren't their in the first place then none of this beheading will be happening....The blame for the troubles lie with the U.S as usual...IMHO cause of most of the misery on our planet...The west quick of the mark to blame muslims for terrorist attacks and so forth yet don't question why the terrorists attack in the first place,motives ect..
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On 2006-02-05 22:56:51, scotsboyuk wrote:
Do we have to have someone protesting about something else before we raise an objection to something? That appears to be what you are saying. Whether people protest U.S. actions or not is no reason not to oppose the kidnap and beheading of innocent people.
Well you will find that many muslims do very much oppose all forms of terrorist activity,just that the media fails to highlight such events properly..But muslims at the same time feel that america should not be in iraq..get out of there country and the beheadings and killings will stop.
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Posted: 2006-02-06 03:49:21
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On 2006-02-06 03:49:21, axxxr wrote:
If you look at some of the previous posts you will see that a few members tried to give explanations as to why muslims are so angry and making threats with those placards....Well let me put to you another way to try and make people understand here what the so called cartoon which obviously means nothing to non-believers really means to muslims.Say for example if you had a close member of family whome you dearly loved and worshipped,idolised for the better word was no longer in this world and you have someone draw a cartoon image of him portraying him in a negative manner,I know its the right comparion but how would you feel about that?..Angry right?..you would be a saint if you stayed calm and ignored it....
No one is saying that Muslims should not voice their disapproval or protest at the cartoons; they have the same right to freedom of speech as those who published the cartoons. However, freedom of speech does not give people the right to perpetuate violence. There is a difference between protest and incitement to violence or even worse actual violence.
I don't think your analogy is very useful; if someone insulted a member of my family I may be upset and perhaps even angry, but I very much doubt I would be barging into their house to burn it down or calling for them to be killed.
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The other problem is after 9/11 and all the Islamphobia against muslims..muslims feel genuinly angry,and this was just the final straw Islamaphobia gone to far...I don't know about but understand the anger and pain muslims are going through at this time...people in the west have to be sensitive to muslims issues and no provoke the radical elements which unfortunately do exsist within muslims.
The vast majority of Europeans bear Islam no ill will nor do they believe that all Muslims are terrorists. European governments have actively tried to establish better relations with their Muslim communities, not shutter them away from the rest of society. The radical elements of any society don't need provocation, they need excuses. If these cartoons had either been ignored or had been protested against in a measured and sensible manner then it is quite likely that the extreme elements in both Islamic culture and secular Western culture would have very little, if anything, to work with as far as whipping up hatred and fear goes. The violence in these protests will only serve to do Islam harm as Muslim extremists use it to further their anti-Western goals and Western extremists use it to polarise society against Islam.
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Like i said maybe to it was just a cartoon but not to muslims...to them it was more than an Insult and bad one at that...I remember when Salman Rushdie wrote the satanic verses and the same thing happened then aswell,but seems like no one learns..hopefully this will be a lesson for all concerned and to learn from this,some lines should never be crossed.
No matter how offensive it might have been it gives no one the right to commit violence or to incite violence. Freedom of speech means just that, the freedom to say whatever one likes and that includes comments on religion. No religion should be able to circumvent that right or to alter it in any way. It is a cornerstone of a free society that people are able to question, debate and speak freely without fear of reprisal.
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No of course two wrongs dont make a right,absolutely not..western media may cover such events but my point is that if western forces weren't their in the first place then none of this beheading will be happening....The blame for the troubles lie with the U.S as usual...IMHO cause of most of the misery on our planet...The west quick of the mark to blame muslims for terrorist attacks and so forth yet don't question why the terrorists attack in the first place,motives ect..
Again I come back to the addage of two wrongs don't make a right. The insurgents may very well oppose the U.S. led occupation of Iraq, but that does not give them the right to kidnap innocent men and women and kill them.
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Well you will find that many muslims do very much oppose all forms of terrorist activity,just that the media fails to highlight such events properly..But muslims at the same time feel that america should not be in iraq..get out of there country and the beheadings and killings will stop.
As I said above, the majority of people are not out to attack Islam, they know that the horrible things we see on television are the work of extremists. Incidentally if you follow the BBC at all you will know that they do cover reports of Muslims opposing violence, as was the case when they reported on Muslims opposed to the violent messages seen in London recently.
Whether America is in Iraq or not will likely have little effect upon the extremists who seek to attack the West whatever the reason. The extremists move their reasons around; we heard of them opposing Western troops in Saudi Arabia before that took a back burner to Iraq. As I said above, extremists do not need provocation, they are already commited to a course of action; they need excuses to put that plan into action.
I think perhaps we should focus on the matter at hand here and not delve too far into Iraq since it is not directly related to this issue.
_________________
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-06 03:55 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-06 04:50:00
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oh my god..... why is hard for you guys to understand... god!! still people here seems so think it is just a cartoon... its just a small thing... it is a this it is that... come on guys.... pls follow your hearts not wat other people say... atleast the heart not up there in ur head..
Not offending.. but stating facts.... I see most Christians make fun of their religion.. a totally disrepect for the sake of laughter.... but I see your point.. the Christians would say.. 'oh it is just a cartoon,' 'nothing serious to think about, it for fun' bla bla bla...... but can i ask you this question... is it a SIN to do that?? or some one in the Christian community has the ability to communicate with father God or Jesus and ask them permission to make fun of them??? im just curious...
To me putting your religion and having a great laugh at it, is kinda wrong... its like disrespecting and making fun of your parents, grand parents, wife and family... for the whole world to have a laugh at you... that not right.. come on.. atleast im speaking facts here...
Yes i agree with wat ur saying guys.. that other religion sees Islam as just another system of religion.. buty we have our ways.... other religion have theirs.... so respect it... If the cretor of that cartoon have a sense of respect he/she would not have done it for the sake of peace all over the world....
Im a muslim... but i dont go ard doin riots and stuff.... WHY?? coz different people are different... some go crazy and angry, some would say take it easy.. just let God take action to this individual who disrespected.... and try to explain to non-muslim (the rest of the world) why it is wrong... in a very peaceful manner.. and hoping the rest would accept for the better future.
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Posted: 2006-02-06 06:23:53
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Completey agree 02 very well said as with your previous posts!
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Posted: 2006-02-06 06:38:22
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On 2006-02-06 06:23:53, 02 wrote:
[snip]...... but can i ask you this question... is it a SIN to do that?? or some one in the Christian community has the ability to communicate with father God or Jesus and ask them permission to make fun of them??? im just curious...
It's probably sinful. And the nature of freedom implies I need no-one's permission to do so.
[snip]
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Yes i agree with wat ur saying guys.. that other religion sees Islam as just another system of religion.. buty we have our ways.... other religion have theirs.... so respect it... If the cretor of that cartoon have a sense of respect he/she would not have done it for the sake of peace all over the world....
Personally I think the artist and the publishers of the cartoons were foolish and I will defend absolutely their right to be so.
Many things offend me very much. On balance it is better to be offended than silenced.
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Posted: 2006-02-06 07:00:15
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there is a lot of material in this thread to the effect that the west needs to respect islam and muslim culture, that the west needs to understand islam, that islam doesn't need to change, and that the west should stop forcing it's ideology on other peoples. all of these things are generally true to a greater or lesser degree, depending on context. however, i cannot help but detect a level of arrogance to those claims.
why should the adherents of islam living in the west not respect the cultural values of the west? why should they not accept that the country in which they reside values free speech and protects that freedom
by law? why should they not be tolerant when the country in which they
choose to live promotes values which do not wholly coincide with their own religious view, especially when those values explicitly protect their right to religious freedom?
the cartoon was drawn by a danish national residing in his own country, published in a danish newspaper, and originally only seen by danish citizens. a
small minority of those citizens found the cartoon offensive - less than 2% in a country of ~5.5 million (assuming every muslim in denmark saw the cartoon
and was offended by it). the only reason anyone else in the world saw that cartoon was because of the disproportionately violent reaction.
why should denmark, a country whose population is nominally 98% christian and has the lutheran church as it's official religion, compromise its social and cultural values - established and protected by hundreds of years of history - for the sake of a minority? the muslim population of denmark consists almost entirely of people who
chose to immigrate, or the descendents of such. note the word "chose". if you choose to live in a country not of your birth, you must accept that it's laws and culture are different from where you grew up . the same goes for anyone who decides to live in iran, saudi or palestine (only moreso, because freedom of speech, religion, and association are not necessarily protected rights in those countries). hell, there would be cultural differences if i moved to the US or UK.
what people seem to miss is that it is the very "western" values they complain about that are protecting these protesters from reprisal. if an iranian newspaper published a cartoon lampooning christ, if anyone so much as wrote a polite letter expressing slight misgivings they would end up either in jail or at the end of a rope.
@O2: technically cartoons lampooning god or christ, and possibly by extension the church, would be a sin (refer to the second and third commandments). the point is, they are other people's sins.
if you believe god/allah created everything on earth then he also created irreverence, irony, cynicism and humour. i personally believe that god must have a sense of humour, otherwise nobody else could have one.
a cornerstone of western (and not coincidentally, predominantly christian) societies is the freedom to have opinions and to express those opinions. this is a right the cartoonist exercised. you have the right to a contrary opinion, and the right to express it. but you do NOT have the right to either threaten or commit violence in the process.
Quote:On 2006-02-06 06:23:53, 02 wrote:
oh my god..... why is hard for you guys to understand... god!! still people Yes i agree with wat ur saying guys.. that other religion sees Islam as just another system of religion.. buty we have our ways.... other religion have theirs.... so respect it... If the cretor of that cartoon have a sense of respect he/she would not have done it for the sake of peace all over the world....
are the rioters respecting islam? what about the apologist excuse-makers with their veiled threats, the "while we don’t condone acts of violence, what we are seeing now is an inevitable result of..." crowd? that isn't not condoning violence, it's an admission of cowardice by people who don't want to get their hands dirty but are willing to live with the outcome if it benefits them. the hypocrisy is just amazing.
the violence is not a result of the cartoons, but the result of something much more insidious. the original publishing paper has apologised for causing offence, so why isn't that the end of it? when any other minority group in the western world is offended by something in the media, they make a peaceful form of public protest (be that a letter, a rally, or a march) which generally results in retraction or apology. no other group seems to get into this cycle of "smite the enemy" violence - not even anti-abortionists
they need to accept that not everyone believes as they do, and is therefore not subject to their moral code.
it just seems to westerners in general that the reaction is wildly disproprotionate to the offence. i mean, arent' there bigger fish to fry (hunger, war, human rights abuses, african aids epidemic, etc.)?
incidentally, in australia joking about and making fun of your family is a sign of affection.
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire
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Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore 
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-06 06:21 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-06 07:13:15
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On 2006-02-06 07:13:15, gelfen wrote:
[snip]
...they need to accept that not everyone believes as they do, and is therefore not subject to their moral code.
it just seems to westerners in general that the reaction is wildly disproprotionate to the offence. i mean, arent' there bigger fish to fry (hunger, war, human rights abuses, african aids epidemic, etc.)?
[snip]
Come to the US or the UK and try publishing a cartoon showing an obviously "Jewish" character, blood dripping from his mouth, grasping at Palestine and see how long you avoid a jail cell.
"Freedom of Speech" in the West is VERY subjective.
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Posted: 2006-02-06 07:30:02
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