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Some People should understand that there's a big difference between innovation and gimmickry!
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Posted: 2005-04-27 00:58:00
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Please try first to define what innovation and innovative means.
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Posted: 2005-04-27 01:30:13
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Well well surely this is a hot thread.
Just want to contribute some views. I think some people think that SE less innovative because they're less concentrate on communication technology and much more laid on Sony's media capability.
Lets see the history what SE or Ericsson has been done ( i cannot help to not to compare it to Nokia cause at some certain point of history this two brands dominate GSM industry) :
Ericsson :
- the first to invent connector that create possibility to connect various accessories such as mp3 player (HPM-10), mini keyboard, etc into mobile phone. Pop Port from Nokia invented years later. Remember the old days when they created t28? Remember the hype?
- the first to create super thin lithium polymer battery in GSM phones, start in t28.
- First GSM terminal use touchscreen and Symbian, R380s. Communicator is not the first.
- EMS : new messaging standard that enable you to send picture, animations and melodies to regular SMS carrier. Implemented firstly to t29. Nokia Picture Message cannot insert melody and play animation at that time (and untill now too).
- Bluetooth. This is the biggest practical Ericsson communication innovation to date. Bluetooth become mainstream 3 years after it was first introduced in T39. It shows a vision from Ericsson become reality.
- MMS : another standard that Ericsson invented and introduced to 3GPP. It has been well accepted. Many earlier MMS model such as T68i already equipped with SMIL so you can make MMS with pictures, animation, and sound play simultaneously (like Power Point presentation with sound in background). Try to send MMS with sound to Nokia 6610 you will find that Nokia breaks the MMS into various parts and play it separately. Yeah i know t68i is from SE not Ericsson but at the time Ericsson introduce t68 they stated that they will implement MMS in future f/w upgrade.
- GPRS. This is not solely Ericsson invention but t39 i recall is the first GSM mobile that has GPRS.
- Communicam MCA-10 : invention from accessories division. First mobile camera for Ericsson GSM. Japanese (and probably other non GSM) already had similar tech years before though.
- Iconic menu design and first GSM with color screen, in t68. The rest of innovation like bluetooth and GPRS already implemented in t39.
And know let see what has SE had been doing.... mmm it is a little difficult here. Please remember at the time SE is growing, GSM industry changes a lot. Many new players and many new technology had been invented. You create a product, 3-4 month after its introduction the competitor will introduce similar or better product. Any of you feel that GSM technology is very hot lately?
- P800 : the major upgrading and revolution of R380s. With colors screen, touchscreen and Symbian and other comm. tech (bluetooth, gprs, etc). Its beat Nokia 9210 by far. P800 is known for its very llllaaaaaatttteeeeee release since its introduction (almost a year).
- T610 : nothing special except the first big screen for such a small phone. T610 set a new menu design too. And... uh... i REALLY like the design, arguably the best design SE had been introduced untill now. In its periode the feature is beaten by Nokia 3650 with better camera and video capability at same price bracket (Dont start smartphone-or-non-smartphone thing! I know that).
- The derivatives of T610, that is Z600 i think is one of the first clamshell "without" external antenna. CMIIW. I marked the without word because the clamshell itself is not a new invention, but internal antenna in clamshell is.
- Z1010 with its video phone and "integrated" MP3 player and MS Duo (arguably external memory phone had been implemented by other competitor like Nokia years before). Z1010 upgrading the t610 generation menu (marks of an era of K700). Z1010 is known for late release too.
During and after T610 era actually SE has left the communication technology and concentrating to media industry. You will see SE lavish advertising in media and movies (o yeah in movies). Many technology has developed in competitor such as Nokia with its Symbian galore, Samsung with its beautiful screen and rotating camera, etc.
SE still concentrating to make derivatives of t68 instead of P800. So it hard to find SE with Symbian.
SE left its communication technology behind, partly because this is a portion of Ericsson (this is hypothetical argument). To date SE seems neglect the implementation of comunication tech such as :
- CDMA
- Push To Talk, Push to View, or a kind
- EDGE (arguably they jump to 3G).
- Voice algorithm such as Voice Clarity from Samsung, or other voice algorithm advancement ( it still using old EFR).
- GSM 1X that combine the GSM and CDMA in one terminal
- etc
You will not see any hype such as when bluetooth firstly introduced by Ericsson. Mostly new technology come from Asian and other manufacturer such as Samsung, Motorola etc.
And lately SE put more media and entertainment to its mobile line. SE shows more attention to Sony than to its other founder, Ericsson :
- Came in various Sony Entertainment movies.
- Camera megapixel and camera menu structure from Sony
- Mega Bass from Sony (in Z800)
- Walkman features from Sony, music system from Sony
etc
SE has many hopes though. If they succeeded combining fully its Japan division to global division. Just look SE Japan websites. Those phone listed there are much more advanced than SE global product (some even more advanced than whole GSM player) in term of entertainment and media technology.
I do not mean racism here, but if SE still concentrating to European market it will failed. European market is too slow to compete any emerging Asians. Most european have long product life cycle (tendency to change to new model is very low). Just look what happened to Siemens.
But remember, as i said before, any new technology these day will have its rival very fast, faster than before. That makes current product less advanced than the newer-release one from competitor. The competition is harsh.
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Posted: 2005-04-27 07:13:34
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On 2005-04-26 22:47:38, scotsboyuk wrote:
Yet another mind numbing thread with people arguing about things that they either don't fully understand or attempt to manipulate to suit their argument.
What exactly is innovation? Why is producing the first 5 MP cameraphone innovative? It is merely producing a better model than a previous 4 MP cameraphone. It isn't really anything 'new'. However, it is innovative because we haven't seen it before.
SE are an extremely innovative company, they create high quality products that utilise features in innovative ways. How many mobile phones were able to control a remote control car before SE implemented it? How many people could control a power point presentation using their phone before SE implemented it? How many people had mobile with a colour screen, GPRS and POP e-mail support before the T68i? How many mobiles could pass as a camera before the K700 or the S700?
I find Yazan's logic extremely flawed because it implies that something can only be innovative if it is completely new. If we were to use this logic then what is it that Nokia have done that is innovative? Changeable covers? What about Samsung? A HDD handset, what else? Are we counting improvements to exisitng camera technology as innovative?
Innovation comes through both invention and applying exisiting technology in new ways. SE are as, if not more, innovative than most mobile phone manufacturers. Indeed, the only two manufacturers who can really be described as technologically innovative are SE and Samsung.
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-04-26 21:48 ]
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-04-26 22:21 ]
That is exactly what i was trying to say.
Innovation does not mean creating something slap bang new, it can, but also means something new and exciting from something else or from something after extensive research and experimentation.
@yazan24
What the HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM?
You start a thread and now want it locked? Why? Is it because you dont want to have a healthy debate? You prefer just starting a topic, stating your opinion and not allowing others to have a go at stating theirs? Ericsson were innovative sure but there was much to invent back then, now mobile phones are packing, as scotty says, amazing new features into smaller shells and just because something doesn't physically look amazingly new, have you taken apart every Sony Ericsson phone? Looked at all the microchips? How do you know if Sony Ericsson haven't worked their backsides off to create an amazing phone. They have, and remember Sony Ericsson is a 50/50 joint venture so TECHNICALLY because Ericsson were as you say innovative Sony Ericsson HAS to be innovative because Ericsson are 50 % of Sony Ericsson.
So i am afraid my friend you have got yourself a bit muddled up. I also agree with batesie in this matter
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Posted: 2005-04-27 09:44:18
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Why on earth does listing Ericssons inventions prove that Sony Ericsson isn't innovative
All that is being done is a comparison.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO INVENT SOMETHING TO BE INNOVATIVE
Why can't people understand that simple statement?
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Posted: 2005-04-27 11:41:00
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WE'RE NOT ADDRESSING BLUETOOTH AS AN IMPLEMENTATION WHEN WE CALL IT INNOVATIVE, THE FACT THAT THEY INVENTED IT IS INNOVATIVE.
_________________
-Kamikaze-
Esato- The first Biased Sony Ericsson Forums
MP3 Ringtones? Oh yeah Laffen killed them.
[ This Message was edited by: masseur on 2005-04-27 10:59 ]
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Posted: 2005-04-27 11:53:16
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You are arguing that because
didn't INVENT/ IMPLEMENT something it means they are not INNOVATIVE!!! How is that so? And how on earth can you be sure
don't hold any Patents?
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-04-27 11:36 ]
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Posted: 2005-04-27 12:25:00
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Golden Face, I was addressing someone else,
They were saying Bluetooth was just an implementation.
You're right, inventing something isnt the only way to be innovative, SE are innovative in aesthetics, and I said that in several posts, but I dont feel aesthetics are as significant as functionality.
I was also saying that a 16 color screen is innovative due to the fact that it opened up endless possibilities.
Finally I was just correcting him, he said that I posted that thr N7250 is smaller than the T610, which I didnt I said it was in the same range.
I wanted this thread locked, because obviously we are not going to come to any conclusion where everyone is happy.
Innovation is in the eye of the beholder. This is especially the case with many SE diehard fans, but I was just trying to point out that Ericsson devices were more revolutionary than those provided by SE.
P-Series is based on Ericsson.
T610- Revolutionary in design but not in technology. Also many features are based on the T68.
The Menu's SE provided, are not their own, theyre based on the T68m which Ericsson made.
The S700 isnt the first fully functional camera in a phone.
The W800, isnt innovative because its just a small upgrade from the K750i, as someone pointed out, its innovative marketing skills, but its really not since this approach has been taken by Nokia and other manufacturers for a while now.
I also want to be clear that in my definition of innovative technology, I dont mean combining several existing features into one handset, I mean introducing an entirely new technology, or implementing an old technology in a totally new field which opens up endless possibilities.
In regards to the post with the changing themes according to the environment, that is innovation, however it will be a couple of years before they implement it and its also the same as some of samsungs innovations, unpractical, cause usually the phones in ure pocket.
Also I dont believe size is such an issue becauase its usually weeks before the next company releases and even smaller phone, Nokia just released a 2MP 3G phone that is small, so its not that big a deal.
So now that thats over.
PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD.
NO ONE POST, PLEASE.
_________________
-Kamikaze-
Esato- The first Biased Sony Ericsson Forums
MP3 Ringtones? Oh yeah Laffen killed them.
[ This Message was edited by: Yazan24 on 2005-04-27 12:13 ]
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Posted: 2005-04-27 13:09:32
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@Yazan
So in other words because people aren't agreeing with you and because your logic is more porous than a sponge you want this thread locked?
Your definitions of innovation are all over the place, they have no focus and no sense.
Why aren't SE as innovative technologically as Ericsson? The use of memorysticks in handsets was used in an old Sony model, but according to your definition of innovation the current SE practice of using smaller memorysticks in handsets can be described as innovative.
What exactly is the point of this thread when you then say that innovation is a personal matter?
Ordinarily I would be calling for this thread to be closed, but I would actually like it to remain open so that others may hopefully be able to make it clear that they think this is as much nonsense and tosh as I do.
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Posted: 2005-04-27 13:53:31
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i erally dont get one thing...
yall call ericsson innovative...and sony ericsson as not being innovative
but sony ericsson is still 'ericsson'...cant yall see the latter half of the company name?????
ur tellin me...just cause a company clubs together with another leading company they becoem non innovative??
ericsson joined hands with sony cause they were in loss...and needed a helpin hand...but they are still very much ericsson, only with added potential...
sony is a leading innovator in the entertainment industry and ericsson is a leadin innovator in the telecom segment..
hence sony+ericsson will only lead to more innovations..those which combine both their resources and ideas....
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Posted: 2005-04-27 14:13:04
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