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Actually, I'm kinda glad that Bush won because I think it's only right that he be the one sitting in the White House to face the repercussions of all his incompetence from his first term. Unfortunately, the rest of the world must partly suffer for it.
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Posted: 2004-11-03 17:47:22
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On 2004-11-03 17:43:11, Grimslade wrote:
I mean, what kind of a--hole goes around talking about other people like that, Richy? What have I done to you? We disagree about politics; it is the height of closemindedness to attribute ill-motives and ignorance to those who disagree with you. It's too bad you don't see that.
I'm sorry it offends you, but I believe that anyone who supports the mass murder of any race or nationality an evil bastard, to say the least. In your defence, my mother falls into this category.
It isn't that you disagree wtih me, you can do that all day. It is that you don't see a problem with more than 15,000 deaths resulting from the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. And not only do you support this activity, you want it to continue.
EDIT: By the way, I'm that kind of asshole. (I do see that I have an extreme dislike of your views, but I have every right to dislike them and express that dislike. Just as you have every right to dislike my views and express that dislike. Don't call me a asshole because I excercise that right; call yourself an asshole because you DON'T excercise that right. I, however, can call myself an asshole without any problem.)
_________________
"Four more years of ignorance and murder."
www.p900club.us
suite240.textamerica.com[ This Message was edited by: richy240 on 2004-11-03 16:52 ]
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Posted: 2004-11-03 17:49:38
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@scottsboy: You're right; you're probably no more likely to change my mind than I am to change yours. Let me try to answer your question though.
I think your use of the word "resentment" is very telling in a way. The U.S. is one of the richest countries in the world; it has the most powerful military in the world, and American pop culture--for better and worse, and more often for the worse--has seeped into nearly every corner of the globe. It represents a quarter of the world economy and and possesses an even larger share of the world's wealth. So of course America is resented; there's not that much anyone can do about that. Remember though that Bush came into office very much aware of that; he said in his debates with Gore that America's strength had to be wielded with humility.
Arguably, he has not exactly been true to his word since 9/11. What happened? Well, 9/11 happened. It was an epiphanic moment for many Americans, including Bush (and me). At that point, or sometime thereafter, Bush made a fateful decision: There was a group of people out there ("evildoers" in his favorite phrase, much derided on this side of the Atlantic) who would stop at nothing to destroy if they could the great Satan that is America. Stopping them became the most important thing that Bush could do. More important than appeasing the sensibilities of the French or the German, or risking alienation among the people on the street in Europe (and Arabia).
Now, one can disagree that the struggle against islamofascism is an existential struggle like that of the Cold War. For that matter, one may disagree that the Cold War was an existential struggle or that Reagan was justified in branding the USSR the Evil Empire. Many in Europe disagree or disagreed with both those assessments. Bush, like Reagan before him, decided he could not afford to be swayed by those doubters.
Could Bush do more to make his case on this point? Absolutely. Could he communicate more clearly the necessity for embarking on a wide-ranging campaign to root out the terrorist threat wherever he finds it or suspects strongly that it lurks? Yes, I think he should and can. OTOH, Reagan did a better job than Bush is ever likely to, and still met strong resistance in Europe (remember the cruise-missile protests?); some will never be persuaded, for reasons too involved to go into here.
The dislike and resentment is not as universal as you may think; pre-election polls in Iran showed that a majority of Iranians would vote for Bush if they could; I swear, I kid you not. But Bush is aware that fighting this war has made him unpopular; I'm sure he's not happy about it. But he believes that winning it is the most important thing. History will judge whether he was right, as I believe it has determined that Reagan was right in his determination to fight the Cold War to win, and freeing hundreds of millions of people from totalitarian communism as a result.
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Posted: 2004-11-03 18:01:05
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@Grimslade
That was a very well-written and thought-out post. I only wish I had the patience and desire to write something like that. Unfortunately, it seems to me that it was written in an attempt to ever-so-slightly change scots mind, or at least give him something to think about...
Then again, what do I know? I am just some ignorant American.
_________________
"Four more years of ignorance and murder."
www.p900club.us
suite240.textamerica.com[ This Message was edited by: richy240 on 2004-11-03 17:11 ]
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Posted: 2004-11-03 18:11:07
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Bush's so called incompetence gave him another 4 years. Why!? Because he had a strong and clear message. Kerry's intellectual mind confuses people and people don't know where he stands. Even if people agrees with Bush or not, people like that his policies are steadfast.
A lot of people will enjoy Bush for the next 4 years:
-Europeans will be able to continue blaming their problems on the cowboy.
-Terrorists will continue their recruitment by promising revenge on Bush.
-Countries all over the world will continue to enjoy the liberal spending by the US military.
Man, I can't believe I wrote this....it actually sounds like I support Bush.....I guess I have to look over my political views again.
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Posted: 2004-11-03 18:26:51
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As much as I agree with pretty much everything negative that has been said about Bush (though I do definitely believe he is truly stupid!), I have to admit that I think I'm glad that he's won.
This is simply because, in spite of all his questionable (I know questionable doesn't quite do it justice) judgment calls, and the damage he is doubtless doing to a very fragile relationship between the US coalition/alliance/bunch of puppets and the rest of the free, and not-so-free, world, I believe that at least we know what we are getting. The problem for me is that Kerry is wholly unconvincing in every respect - I can honestly say that I don't know what he really stands for, and that, gentlemen (and ladies, if the animosity hasn't done for any that were partaking in this little debate) is what worries me more than anything Bush has done or might do. At the end of the day, you don't vote for Bush, you vote for the Rumsfelds and the Powells and the Rices who make the real decisions - but you know what those will be. What do you get if you vote Kerry??
There is an awful lot going on in the world in which America plays THE key role, albeit largely of their own doing. What happens to the rebuilding of the countries America has decimated? What happens to the Middle East peace process? What happens in Korea? In my view, for all the bad that Bush is responsible for (just because he's pig thick, doesn't absolve him of responsibility), at least we know where we are going and, if you think he's nothing but genocidal devil-spawn, even you have to believe that the worst of that is over.
With Kerry, what would have been next??
I'm not saying this is a generic argument for not voting in the opposition to incumbent government, but in this case, I just don't believe in Kerry. I'm not evil, or a murderer, or anything else, but feel free to call me what you wish, unless you happen to bump into me
- but I am opposed to Kerry, as opposed to being pro-Bush.
God knows, if there was a convincing Democratic candidate, this would be whole different ball-game and a whole new President, but it's not.
So there...
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Posted: 2004-11-03 18:27:20
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@Richy--Thank you, although I'm not sure why you say "unfortunately." Scottsboy asked for an explanation of my views (unlike you). I'd hope that if I can express them clearly, someone other than myself might find them compelling, although I know that people of good will may still find reasons to disagree with me. It takes all kinds to make a world...
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Posted: 2004-11-03 18:28:03
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Just read amagab's post and realised that he managed to make the same point as me, using a fraction of the bandwidth!
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Posted: 2004-11-03 18:29:36
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Hey i just thought about it, 4 more years of axxr finding funny pictures and photoshops of Bush!
That is unless he holds his agreement with Jojo...
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Posted: 2004-11-03 19:41:33
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There are lots of people in the world support Bush. Osama bin Laden opposes abortion, gay marriage and stem cell research. And the animals looked at the pigs, then the men, and back at the pigs again...
This message was posted from a T68i
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Posted: 2004-11-03 19:57:52
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