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@gigs:
if you did RE then you should know that from a purely christian perspective adam and eve forfeited a life devoid of suffering and death, both for them and all their descendents, when they ate the forbidden fruit (or as my father would say, the first of many times a woman led a man astray). tragedy entered the world as the result of human sin from a global rather than personal perspective, and not due to "the fickle nature of god". if anything it is his unreasoning
as their "descendents" we inherit the legacy of that and all other sins, which is forgiven us in the next life (provided we repent) because of the sacrifice made by ol' JC. if you don't believe in a next life there is no way that it could possibly balance out. i also think there is a difference between actively smiting people and allowing them to be smote by natural forces - which gets back to my earlier post about people being too proud to admit defeat in the face of mother nature.
@peter:
i'm sorry, but that still seems like an attempt to dodge the question to some extent. if you are "a student who knows the whole Quran by heart" then surely you already know about these seemingly contradictory passages, which begs the question why didn't you ask about them during your studies?
if, as you said earlier, you do not believe they are contradictions can you please explain why you believe that? - specifically not in the general sense as you did above.
Quote:Do they not reflect upon the Quran? Were it from anyone other than Allah they would have found many inconsistencies or discrepancies therein.
*what follows applies more or less equally to any religion, and i welcome comments from anyone*
this particular statement i can interpret in one of two ways: either if
any inconsistency can be found in the quran (either philosophically or factually) it is immediately invalidated as the word of allah, or it is the word of allah and by definition will be interpreted as entirely consistent and definitive irrespective of any evidence to the contrary.
the former is a very ambitious and (to my view) unattainable test because, while it might be the word of allah it was still written by human hands under the influence of human minds limited by human understanding - and therefore by definition imperfect. personally i don't think there is a holistically consistent religious text on earth, but that's another argument. somebody somewhere will inevitably find an inconsistency or error.
the latter is a very dangerous position, because it ultimately precludes two things:
1. critical appraisal of the religious text - once any text is accepted as an absolute, it becomes something which is swallowed verbatim without any thoughts on the possibility of human error or critical analysis. yes god/allah may well be perfect, but his agents and adherents on earth are not. no matter how simple the message, it still needs to be interpreted before it can be written and after it has been written so that it can be spread. that interpretation is rooted in the customs and culture of the audience it is delivered to. ultimately that initial interpretation, limited by the range of human understanding at the time, becomes doctcrine, which in turn becomes unchallengable because the doctrine is given the same weight as the text. a criticism of the doctrine becomes a criticism of the text and vice versa. this leads to my second point...
2. the possibility that the author of the message (in this case god/allah) will influence the way we interpret that text in future generations - the freedom of religious interpretation and evolution is lost because the text and associated doctrine is deemed perfect for all time. the
message may be perfect for all time, but the text itself should always be viewed as a human attempt to repeat and propagate that message. the way a particular text was intepreted 1000 or even 100 years ago may not be the same way it was intended to be interpreted today. as the plethora of human knowledge grows, so should the interpretation of any religious text be re-evaluated. that doesn't mean shoe-horning things in as it's convenient, or ignoring selected passages for your own comfort, but stripping back all the pre- and misconceptions (and oft-times ignorance) upon which the current doctrine is based and starting from scratch with the view to establishing a more complete understanding. mohammed may be the last prophet of allah, but that doesn't necessarily make him the last person whom allah offered guidance.
_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore 
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2005-10-20 02:59 ]
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Posted: 2005-10-20 03:52:14
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On 2005-10-19 18:46:06, peeta wrote:
I agree with nearly everything you said except the last bit. Unless you seek out certain things that are important to you i don't think you are likely to attain them. Also, it is those dreams and aspirations that are for me the main point (although not everything there is) to life. Which means it's also important that those aspirations are well chosen and truly meaningful to you e.g. probably not money and possessions at the expense of all else (they have their place but too much importance is placed on them, generally)
I think you have misunderstood what I meant, which probably wasn't helped much in that I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
I don't mean to say that one shouldn't have goals in life, but I find that when one doesn't seek material reward or attempt to attain things, one is much more grateful and appreciative of those things one does attain. It's the expectancy that I find to be negative. One may expect that going to university will allow one to get a good job, it doesn't always work out that way. One may expect that marrying someone will mean one is happy for the rest of one's life with that person, again that doesn't always work out.
Part of Chapter 29 of the Tao Te Ching says:
Quote:Those who wish to change the world
According with their desire
cannot succeed.
The world is shaped by the Way;
It cannot be shaped by the self.
Trying to change it, you damage it;
Trying to possess it, you lose it.
In other words; what will be will be and one should accept that there are some things beyond one's control. That isn't to say that one can't make a difference, but one should also accept one's place in the world and realise that expecting or simply craving something isn't enough to attain that something.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-10-20 04:22 ]
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Posted: 2005-10-20 05:20:52
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@scots: does that mean that one will not be attempting to attain a w900i then?
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Posted: 2005-10-20 05:31:57
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Posted: 2005-10-20 05:35:00
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@gelfen
In the words of Yoda, "Do or do not. There is no try." I know that I shall have a W900 so there is no attempt.
Whilst I'm the subject of Star Wars I thought I would post
this.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-10-20 04:47 ]
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Posted: 2005-10-20 05:46:09
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it is as inevitable as the tao.
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Posted: 2005-10-20 05:48:15
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One last Star Wars link, if I post more I shan't stop.
Here is an article by a Muslim chap who wants to be a Jedi.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-10-20 04:54 ]
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Posted: 2005-10-20 05:54:32
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Ok just one more, I promise.
The last article I linked to compares Islam, in some respects, with the Force.
This article compares Taoism with the Force.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-10-20 04:59 ]
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Posted: 2005-10-20 05:59:27
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there's a lot of star wars related material on that site but i don't think it's applicable for this discussion, except possibly this one:
The Force is with…Everyone
which gives real descriptions of how various people identify elements of the jedi mythos with their own faith.
_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore [ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2005-10-20 06:19 ]
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Posted: 2005-10-20 07:18:12
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@gelfen
It is perhaps interesting to note that various faiths do identify parts of the Star Wars mythos with their own beliefs.
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Posted: 2005-10-20 07:41:54
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