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On 2004-11-03 23:15:03, amagab wrote:
By the way, Iraq is not some random nation. It sits on the largest untouched oil reserves in the world.
That's my point...
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Posted: 2004-11-03 23:32:46
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@Grimslade
You raise some interesting points, but I feel I must reply on some of them.
My use of the word resentment is deliberate, but not in the way you think. I know of no one in Britain who resents America because of its wealth, culture or influence; there probably are people in this country who do believe that, but I haven't met or spoken with any. The reason there is so much resentment against America in Britain is because of America's unilateral stance and policies. I imagine that this is also true of much of the rest of Europe apart from France, who do actually resent their culture being 'usurped' by not only America, but by Britain too.
Britain was the premier world power for much of the 19th and 20th centuries, and, relatively speaking, was far more powerful than America has ever been. Britain spread her culture and values across the globe, how can we be resentful of our own values? The American system of government is based upon English ideals of liberty, U.S. laws are based upon English common law, America uses English as a language, the founding fathers of America were largely British, the oldest towns and cities in America were largely founded by Britons and America's closest cultural companions today are Britain and the Commonwealth. Resentment of American success has absolutely no major part to play in the current ill feeling towards America. One should also note that American values were actively welcomed and sought in much of the world following WWII, that respect and admiration has evaporated across the continent.
Perhaps Britain is the best nation to look at to understand why there is so much anger at America around the world. How can it be that the vast majority of the population of America's closest ally are so resentful and angry at the U.S.? One might imagine that Britons should have similar opinions to Americans; both nations seem to have a sense of manifest destiny; both nations have at times been the most powerful on Earth and America shares a common heritage with Britain. However, Britain is now a very different nation, politicaly speaking, to America; Britain is secular where America is very much ecclesiastical; Britain is a largely liberal society where America is very much conservative and Britons are reserved where Americans are much more predisposessed towards emotion.
Britons, and Europeans in general, look upon Bush as being the sort of American who knows and cares little for the rest of the world, and to an extent, we are correct. At the risk of sounding arrogant, many Europeans look upon the U.S. as an almost barbaric society that promotes desrimination, executes people, does little to provide for the poorest of its citizens and enshrines the right to carry weapons in law. We look at Bush's policies in the same light, we see them as being selfish and self-serving, with little regard to what the rest of the world thinks. This model can be transfered to Europe at large, and in some respects to the rest of the world. It isn't a case of people hating American culture, once it was loved and cherished, now it is seen as a Barthesan symbol of all that is wrong with America.
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Posted: 2004-11-03 23:41:39
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On 2004-11-03 23:41:39, scotsboyuk wrote:
The American system of government is based upon English ideals of liberty, U.S. laws are based upon English common law, America uses English as a language, the founding fathers of America were largely British, the oldest towns and cities in America were largely founded by Britons and America's closest cultural companions today are Britain and the Commonwealth. Resentment of American success has absolutely no major part to play in the current ill feeling towards America. One should also note that American values were actively welcomed and sought in much of the world following WWII, that respect and admiration has evaporated across the continent.
Britons, and Europeans in general, look upon Bush as being the sort of American who knows and cares little for the rest of the world, and to an extent, we are correct. At the risk of sounding arrogant, many Europeans look upon the U.S. as an almost barbaric society that promotes desrimination, executes people, does little to provide for the poorest of its citizens and enshrines the right to carry weapons in law. We look at Bush's policies in the same light, we see them as being selfish and self-serving, with little regard to what the rest of the world thinks.
As with all historic reading, it was interesting to read your point. However, I'd like to point out that the reason the US was created was because British people wanted to create a better nation, free from kings, taxes, classes and discrimination. The British who created the US wanted to escape the "Old Country" free'er society. Apart from slavery I have to say that they were very successful.
People pour into the US to avoid discrimination, persecution, heavy taxes, inequality, deprivation, and many more reasons. Yes, the government does not pay the poor the way Western European nations do, but, here individual success is motivated and rewarded.
Although I do dislike Bush and his administration, he is not as bad as liberal media portrays him to be. His downfall is his arrogant cowboy attitude but that is also part of his success. Media/people do not look at things that the US government do achieve, whether it be spending billions on foreign aid, welcoming immigrants with open arms, heavy investments in developing nations, etc. We also have to understand that the US has the biggest marketplace in the world. European and Asian business is nothing without the US consumption/spending.
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Posted: 2004-11-04 00:16:33
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ANNOUNCEMENT BY @JN:
So, after all have been said and done . . . Kerry conceded to Bush !
SO, @axxxr, just REMEMBER our 'manly' agreement here mate, as I will watch every 'politically inclined posts' that you will/might make . . . in the future! Our agreement has a validity period of 4 YEARS as his (George W. Bush's) term will end by 2008 !
Again, I am not 'totally' FOR his made in the past decisions . . . and perhaps, also in the present FUTURE . . . it's just that I hate seeing posts here 'LAMBASTING' him - openly, so goes with other POLITICAL figures round the GLOBE
!
For the ESATO MEMBERS who have prayed for Kerry's win and DESPISE my PRESENCE here (and for me to lose my username here at Esato) . . . you've got it all WRONG
. . . I guess you just have to BEAR with ME for an INDEFINITE PERIOD of TIME - again . . .
Wanna ask how I manage to do the BET, I contacted NOSTRADAMUS thru my vintage Motorola V60i fone in line 6, and asked him who does he think will WIN . . . he lamented: "It will be a CLOSE fight JOJO, but better go for BUSH - to be SURE here . . ." I even asked him about me choosing U.S. Presidential candidate -NADER, and he just said: "Forget it . . . Mate"
What a BET, it's just like a WALK IN THE PARK/PIECE OF CAKE TOO ! Wheeeeeeeeeeeew
that was really CLOSE . . .
I .. . . REMAIN!
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Posted: 2004-11-04 01:03:13
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As with all historic reading, it was interesting to read your point. However, I'd like to point out that the reason the US was created was because British people wanted to create a better nation, free from kings, taxes, classes and discrimination. The British who created the US wanted to escape the "Old Country" free'er society. Apart from slavery I have to say that they were very successful.
i have to disagree with you on this--we had and we still have many problems. Perhaps slavery was the worst of it, but there were also many other things we did that we look at today and think, "what the hell were we thinking?!"
For example: womens' suffrage, the gap between the high and low classes (which has drastically decreased this century but its growing again), dsicrimintaion against gays and other minoritiy groups, racism, religious discrimination, etc. etc.
I think it's a long way till we actually fully learn to embrace the ideals this country was founded on.
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Posted: 2004-11-04 03:31:00
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Quote from a New York Times article on the American soldier who defected to North Korea in 1965:
With anti-American hostility acute, Sergeant Jenkins recalled that one day he was taken to a hospital where orderlies held down his forearm as a doctor, without using anesthesia, cut off a piece of skin tattooed, "U.S. Army."
In his closing statement, he apologized to soldiers under his command, to the Army and to the nation.
"After living 40 years in North Korea, there is no freedom like the freedom in the United States," he said. Referring to Kim Jong Il, he added, "People in North Korea suffer under a system that is evil and is run by a man who is evil to his bones."
After one day in North Korea, he said, he realized that he had made a terrible mistake.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/1[....]a/04deserter.html?pagewanted=2
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Posted: 2004-11-04 08:58:00
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@Grim - I'm not quite sure what your point is?
This message was posted from a T68i
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Posted: 2004-11-04 09:57:15
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I am really happy that bush won the election (even though I personally dislike his policies) for at least Axxxr will stop wasting esato bandwidth by posting his anti bush propaganda. I really hope he fullfils his part of the 'manly' agreement with Jojo or may be he could continue his 'highly successful' propaganda using esato for another 4 years and I am quite sure this time he will be very successful in removing bush as the American law doesn't allow one to be president for more than two terms.
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Posted: 2004-11-04 10:24:30
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On 2004-11-04 09:57:15, absinthebri wrote:
@Grim - I'm not quite sure what your point is?
This message was posted from a T68i
I guess he's just reminiscing the 2nd World War here . . . or the very Clear and Present Danger - North Korea imposes threats with it's neighbor with it's Nuclear capabilities - US will target North Korea, that's for SURE! As SURE as the Sun rises in the East . . .
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Posted: 2004-11-04 15:14:30
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On 2004-11-04 00:16:33, amagab wrote:
As with all historic reading, it was interesting to read your point. However, I'd like to point out that the reason the US was created was because British people wanted to create a better nation, free from kings, taxes, classes and discrimination. The British who created the US wanted to escape the "Old Country" free'er society. Apart from slavery I have to say that they were very successful.
The Puritans who left England in the early 17th century regarded themselves as very much English, they wanted to remain a part of English society and their objectives were sought within that society. The later American Revolution largely came about because of political and economic discontent, and many 'Americans' at that time did not want a complete seperation with Britain, including many who were critical of the British government at the time. The Revolution itself was not a universal movement amongst 'Americans' and support was divided. Your referal to the 'Americans' of the day wanting to be 'free from kings' is a little misleading; Washington was offered the title of king, but refused, if he hadn't it seems likely that America would have a monarchy today. The idea of monarchy was a deep rooted one among the English at that time, one need only look to the Restoration to see that, many 'Americans' at that time would have shared these common beliefs.
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People pour into the US to avoid discrimination, persecution, heavy taxes, inequality, deprivation, and many more reasons. Yes, the government does not pay the poor the way Western European nations do, but, here individual success is motivated and rewarded.
Your comments are somewhat misleading; poor Europeans are not 'paid' as such, they are given money as well as other means, with which to provide for themselves and their families. There is also the provision of free health care for everyone in society and a universal pension scheme for everyone in society. These may not be perfect, but they ensure that no one has to starve, die of a treatable condition or go homeless if they don't want to.
Quote:
Although I do dislike Bush and his administration, he is not as bad as liberal media portrays him to be. His downfall is his arrogant cowboy attitude but that is also part of his success. Media/people do not look at things that the US government do achieve, whether it be spending billions on foreign aid, welcoming immigrants with open arms, heavy investments in developing nations, etc.
Many Europeans do know that the U.S. is the single biggest provider of aid in the world and that it does do a lot to help the world's poor, but then again Europe also gives massive sums of money to poor nations. The idea amongst many Europeans isn't that giving to those less well off is something that should be congratulated, rather it is a duty that we have to help our fellow man when in need.
Europe also takes in large numbers of immigrants from all around the world, including many immigrants from the wars that the U.S. and other Western nations have participated in, with them being physically near to Europe.
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We also have to understand that the US has the biggest marketplace in the world. European and Asian business is nothing without the US consumption/spending.
At the risk of sounding flippant I find this remark extremely silly. Do you honestly think that American businesses would survive very long if the rest of the world decided it didn't want to trade with the U.S.? The U.S. needs the rest of the world far more than the rest of the world needs the U.S. The U.S. produces nothing that either cannot be manufactured by another nation, or if not, is so essential that the rest of the world can do without it.
American businesses need European and Asian markets to sell their products and services, just as European and Asian businesses need American markets to sell their products and services. No single nation can survive on its own; Britain attempted to create a closed trading bloc in the 1920's and 30's, but even with control over a quarter of the planet's landsurface and population (see map below) a single trading bloc was found to be unworkable. The EU alone represents a larger market than the U.S., not to mention India, China or the whole of Asia.
@Grimslade
I'm not all that sure what your point is. If it is to demonstarte that the U.S. is not that bad a place to live then you seem to have picked a rather extreme example; just about any nation on Earth would be preferable to live in than North Korea. The U.S. is not a terrible place and I don't believe I have made such a case, but I have pointed out the difference between how Americans and Europeans may see America.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-11-04 16:09 ]
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Posted: 2004-11-04 17:08:46
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