General discussions : Non mobile discussion : The Danish Mohammad cartoon row - what do you think?
>
New Topic
>
Topic Locked
Esato Forum Index
>
General discussions >
Non mobile discussion
> The Danish Mohammad cartoon row - what do you think?
Bookmark topic
I've just heard on the morning news from ITN that an Israeli newspaper has published the cartoons.
Also on the news was a report about the man who dressed as a suicide bomber during the London protest apologising for his actions. It was also reported that the man is a drug dealer who is currently out of prison on license. Read the ITN article
here and the BBC article
here.
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:06:08
Edit :
Quote
Quote:
On 2006-02-07 08:06:08, scotsboyuk wrote:
I've just heard on the morning news from ITN that an Israeli newspaper has published the cartoons.
Also on the news was a report about the man who dressed as a suicide bomber during the London protest apologising for his actions. It was also reported that the man is a drug dealer who is currently out of prison on license. Read the ITN article
here and the BBC article
here.
Im not at all surprised at the Israeli's printing it...they have been long standing open enemies of muslims and Islam since the begining of religion..this is not good at all for that region,it will cause further problems now.
yeh i heard about that guy dressed up as a suicide bomber,that was stupid well at least he appologised.
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:10:36
Edit :
Quote
I think there is a cultural element to this situation, but I think that the religious component is what is making the situation worse than it need be. For instance, purely cultural differences tend not to be absolutes. Someone in one country may think the way people in another country do something is strange or even wrong, but it is unlikely that that view stems from an absolute principle.
When religion come sinto play we can find that opinions are based on absolutes that then cause greater opposition to something than would have been the case if it was entirely a acse of cultural differences.
@axxxr
From what I heard on the news the Israeli paper is publishing the cartoons to defend freedom of speech. I do think it is incredibly stupid of them to do so considering the current situation and indeed the wider situation involving Israel and the Muslim world.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-07 07:15 ]
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:11:03
Edit :
Quote
Let's see how long it takes them to accuse anyone protesting against the Israeli paper of anti-Semitism.
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:11:37
Edit :
Quote
We seem to be going around in circles. i'm probably going to cover old ground since you guys respong to each other so damn fast, but i've been working on this offline.....
@scorpionking: I certainly wish there were more people with your attitude
Quote:On 2006-02-06 21:32:36, xdavex wrote:
This guy has it down to a T...
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/02/05/we_are_all_danes_now/
On 2006-02-06 23:38:10, amnesia wrote:
that guy knows nothing, he's speaking based on what he feels not what he knows.
Sorry, but I disagree. The theme of the article is pretty much bang on. If he has made any factual errors please point them out.
@absinth: I have observed that firsthand myself.
@axxxr: I cannot help but detect a level of arrogance inherent in some of your statements. I understand and respect that you hold strong beliefs and that they are dear to you, but they do not supersede the beliefs of any other individual or group. Your religion is not mine, and therefore I am not bound by your rules.
scots has pretty much covered what I wanted to say so I’ll restrict myself to a few additional points:
Quote:On 2006-02-07 00:02:35, axxxr wrote:
Im sick of this argument that other religions don't behave this way when we mock they gods or idols...just try to understand that Islam
DOES NOT tolerate that
And every other religion, be it Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism or anything else,
DOES NOT tolerate mockery of its gods, idols, beliefs or practices. Yet almost universally the adherents of these religions manage to maintain enough self-control when expressing their displeasure to avoid getting buildings burned and people killed. On the very rare occasions when this is not the case, it is members of their own faith who are the first to publicly and unequivocally condemn them.
With blatant prevarication and veiled threats of reprisal by so-called “moderate” Islamic leaders (at least in Australia), the same cannot be said in this case. To argue that the differences in behaviour are only because people in the west have “lost respect” for their religions is to deny the sincerity of those beliefs, and is no better than you perceive the cartoonists to be.
Quote: not much to ask to show a little respect is it?
And yet you feel free to claim that the Christian beliefs of myself (and tens of millions of others around the world) are somehow less sincere than those of the average Muslim, and imply that because of this vilification of my religion is more acceptable? You accuse others and yet are guilty of the same offence.
What about respect for western beliefs and cultural values? Respect is like money – it must be earned and it’s made round to go round.
Quote:On 2006-02-07 03:11:33, scotsboyuk wrote:
but I am rather puzzled as to why some apparently feel it necessary to whip the situation up into a maelstrom of fear and hate.
I suspect because there is a subgroup who perceive this outcome will be advantageous to their agenda. There are no doubt individuals on both sides who cannot stomach the thought of friendly relations between Islamic and non-Islamic people. It’s not a nice thought, but one I suspect is true.
Quote:On 2006-02-07 03:11:33, scotsboyuk wrote:
The intent is important here. The newspaper made a mistake in judging the reaction of the Muslim community; it issued an apology for it. The paper did not go out of its way to attack Islam or to denigrate Muslims
On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
Don't think they do otherwise they would'nt have gone ahead and published such articles!
On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
I have seen the cartoons in question and the 99.9% of muslims do actually agree that the cartoons intention was purely to attack islam.
scots is absolutely right here. The intent and context is vital to this discussion. If 99.9% of muslims believe the sole intent was to attack Islam (a figure I know you invented and which is certainly not reflective of the public debate within my own country), then that 99.9% are
dead wrong.
The cartoons were published not to attack or insult Islam, but as a commentary on the environment of fear and self-censorship which
fundamentalist radical Islamic extremists have fomented. The purpose was to illustrate that we should not be silenced merely through intimidation by such individuals and groups, and that western society should not sacrifice its freedoms to such threats. Essentially it was a statement to the effect that ‘In my own country I have a right to express my opinion, even if that opinion is critical of your beliefs, and I will not forsake that right out of fear.’
Quote:On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
some people should undertand why a small minority of muslims would be angry and resort to violence.
On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
but its human nature to be violent
I would dispute this. I would say it is within human nature to be violent, but an individual must still
choose to be so.
Quote:On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
on the other hand Islam has not evolved in any shape or form and is still the way it was when it first arrived 1400 years and will remain unchanged,because that is one of the basic laws of the islamic faith...man cannot change gods words
no, but man’s understanding of those words can evolve and grow. God’s words are true for all time, but that doesn’t mean all of His words have the same meaning for all time. As we are exposed to new developments and new cultures our understanding of those words is challenged by new ideas, which either serves to erode your faith or reaffirm it by realising that a hitherto unknown phenomenon has a place in the overall message.
Quote:On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
Maybe so but the EU surely has policy which states you cannot incite racial or religious hatred and respect individual faiths....The law does'nt and shoud'nt allow anyone to disrepect someones religion,specially if they have no knowledge of that religion.
comments that are purely malicious or deliberately hurtful would come under such laws. Comments made in the spirit of debate or critical analysis would not.
Quote:On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
I agree everyones values and practices should be respected,that is why it is so imported to not to blaspheme islam or any religion.
At this point I want to include the following from the blog of Australian media commentator
Tim Blair
” Odd that this concern over maintaining the peace doesn’t limit Muslim commentary on other religions or communities. The Islamic Bookstore in Lakemba (Sydney), for example, sells vicious anti-Semitic tract The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as well as various anti-Christian titles (Crucifixion – or Cruci-FICTION?). Sheik Khalid Yasin, a regular guest lecturer in Australia, declared that “there’s no such thing as a Muslim having a non-Muslim friend” and denounced modern clothes as the work of “faggots, homosexuals and lesbians”; Christians, he said, deliberately infected Africans with AIDS. Yasin wouldn’t merely draw cartoons of homosexuals—he’d have them put to death in accordance with Koranic law. One Imam told Australian students that Jews put poison in bananas. Local Iraqis voting in their country’s elections were shot at and otherwise intimidated by Islamic extremists whose banners announced: “You vote, you die.” These friends of free speech were also observed photographing those who dared to vote. Sheikh Feiz Muhammad told a supportive Bankstown (Sydney) crowd last year that women deserve to be raped if they wore “satanical” garments, including anything “strapless, backless, [or] sleeveless”, and also “mini-skirts [and] tight jeans.”
All of this is far more hateful and moronic than those twelve Danish cartoons, not one of which depicts the Prophet eating babies, poisoning fruit, or infecting Africans with AIDS. Far from being against hate-speech, many Muslim spokesmen seem to be aggressively for it; until, of course, someone contemplates publishing harmless drawings of an old beardy guy. At that point Sheik Fehmi El-Imam (general secretary of the Board of Imams of Victoria) warns that we risk “disturbing the peace”.”
Quote:On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
There is a very fine line between racism and freedom of speech,i see this is as race issue to some degree as most muslims are from an ethnic background i.e: Arab,Pakistani, ect...why should it be unacceptable to call an asian a p*ki and ok to make a joke about their prophets?
Racist is a label too easily thrown about nowadays. Islam is not a race, it is a
religion with adherents from a multitude of races. While a majority of those adherents are of a particular ethnicity, that is utterly beside the point. The widespread nature of the rioting is such that I doubt anyone could feasibly argue that race is a motivating factor.
Quote:On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
I know the danes have been appologising left right and centre.
So why is that not the end of it? They’ve apologized, they were sincere. The cartoons were first published in Sept/Oct last year. How is it reasonable, or even possible, that the reaction is still building unless the true motivation is something else?
The only reason the controversy left denmark was because Danish Imams
deliberately set about creating an international incident with images not published by the paper rather than trying to resolve the matter peacefully and locally (I suggest people read the story behind that link).
_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore 
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-07 07:40 ]
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:16:29
Edit :
Quote
An article in the Independent reports that a British Muslim newspaper has printed a cartoon Jewish people find offensive. You can read the article
here.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-07 07:17 ]
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-07 07:17 ]
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:17:15
Edit :
Quote
oh dear,I think now we are going to have a tit for tat scenario..what next?
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:22:08
Edit :
Quote
it's not about tit for tat. it's about treating others as you would like to be treated yourelf (a point i broadly made in the last post on
page 13).
_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore [ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-07 07:27 ]
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:26:14
Edit :
Quote
gelfen i was refering to scotsboyuk's last post.
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:28:59
Edit :
Quote
Quote:
On 2006-02-07 07:17:02, scotsboyuk wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-02-07 04:24:01, axxxr wrote:
Don't think they do otherwise they would'nt have gone ahead and published such articles!...islam does'nt have to be secretive,just that generally non-muslims fail to understand Islam thats why we have such a clash in the world against the two civilisations..fair point that it does'nt give anyone the right to commit violence,but having said that when you provoke someone by insulting someone who is so incredibly sacred to muslims.some people should undertand why a small minority of muslims would be angry and resort to violence.
I think what you are missing here is the fact that whether or not the newspaper knew the cartoons would draw criticism from Muslims they had a right to publish them. The newspaper did not publish the cartoons in a deliberate attempt to attack Islam; if the newspaper had deliberately sought to attack Islam and cause trouble then that is a different matter.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-07 06:29 ]
Scots 9 out the 12 cartoons published were Islamophobic!!
But one thing im not sure of, was there a relevance to the publishing of the pictures? Did it follow a story published or were they just random???
Coz randomly publishing 9 Islamophobic cartoons is asking for shit!!!
And the latest news is that Denmark is losing 5 million dollars a day to Iran alone because of this stint!!
--
Posted: 2006-02-07 08:30:30
Edit :
Quote
New Topic
Topic Locked
