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@Sammy_boy

I am in agreement with you, especially about the need for the overthrow of tyrannical regimes, but by their own people rather than foreign intervention. There are always going to be some cases where foreign intervention is necessary, North Korea being one such example.
The main problem with North Korea is that the regime there is completely obsessed with staying in power and would almost certainly use every means at its disposal to do so. I remember watching a BBC documentary on North Korea and it was appalling to see how the North Koreans are living. They are taught that it was America who started the Korean War and that America is intent on destroying their country, only their nuclear weaponry prevents this; one North Korean general who was asked about the idea that it was the North who started the Korean War became angry and started to get quite aggressive towards the journalist asking the question. This one example tells us a great deal about the mentality of the regime.
Here in the West we have a large number of do-gooders who will moan about everything under the Sun, but won't actually come up with any sensible or practical ideas on how to solve problems. The recent war in Iraq shows this state of affairs very nicely in my opinion. Many do-gooders would scream that there were human rights abuses in Iraq and that the regime there was oppressing the Iraqi people, but they categorically refused to even contemplate that armed force be used to end the regime in Iraq. Quite how they thought Saddam could be toppled I’m not sure, perhaps by asking him nicely?
Before I move on I should state that I am not categorising 'do-gooders' with those people who genuinely felt that the war in Iraq was wrong, not that they were anti-war just for the sake of it, but because they felt that it wasn't necessary and they had sound reasoning to back up their beliefs. I am also not in any way drawing in the reasoning for the war, whether it be moral reasons or WMDs etc I am merely concerned with demonstrating how a particular group of people in the West bemoan Western values and ideas, but contribute very little themselves.
Another example is peace protestors here in Britain who camp outside military bases and installations. Whilst I very much respect genuine held convictions that war is wrong (I share those very same convictions) I also think it extremely hypocritical of many of these activists to bemoan Western culture and values whilst also claiming benefits and other aid from the system that they so hate. It is this sort of person who is the first to run crying that 'something should be done' whenever something bad happens on their doorstep; then the Army and the rest of the Armed Forces don't seem quite so bad after all.
Western society has been falling in on itself for some time now and the type of person I have outlined above is one of the prime reasons we find ourselves sin the state we are in. I know many people who are anti-war and who believe in a less capitalistic society, but they manage to advocate their views whilst also holding down a job, contributing to the general health of the nation and everyone who live sin it and refrain from smashing shop windows or defacing memorials to millions of people who selflessly sacrificed their lives so that we might live in freedom. Too many people don’t want to do anything nay more, people have become lazy and dependent on the state for everything, they feel that it is their right to receive money for sitting on their behind and not bothering to look for a job, whilst many people who really do deserve such money have to make do with less.. The West is full of people ready to criticise and blame everything that is wrong in the world on the West, instead of actually doing something about it.
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Posted: 2004-06-16 16:14:27
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I suspect North Korea is a state where the people may never overthrow their leaders, simply because they have been brainwashed so much by their own regime, and see their leader almost as a 'god' and therefore unfallible (and therefore beyond question!), which of course is all rubbish.

btw, please don't think that I'm one of those bleeding heart liberals into political correctness and being pathologically scared of offending anyone, as I'm not! I think that perhaps more people do need to stand up for what they believe is right here in the west, and not simply grin and bear it. The question is what to do, apart from plot a coup against the government and the establishment?
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Posted: 2004-06-16 16:25:19
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@Sammy_boy

Having read previous posts from you I don't think you are a bleeding heart liberal. I do agree that people should stand up for what they believe in, but we must also do so in a constructive manner. I see absolutely no merit in vandalising property and wrecking businesses as a means to political change.
The North Korean situation is very sad because of the reasons you stated, but human nature being what it is, the North Korean people are not all going to take things lying down. From what I have seen of North Korea there are enough people who know what is really happening in the world to make it possible to form opposition to the regime there, unfortunately they have almost no help in doing this.
The West should be using its power to topple tyrants all over the world, a more peaceful and secure world will ultimately save lives in the long wrong. Mugabe in Zimbabwe is a prime example, without wanting to appear a war monger or too conservative, the international community should have kicked him out long ago, he has done nothing but inflict misery upon his people.
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Posted: 2004-06-16 16:33:22
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That was well put and i agree with you 100 percent Also Axxxr You Are very one sided and narrow minded All i can say is stick to the reveiws on Electronic's....And maybee u need to watch a couple more Micheal Moore Movies becuase u seem to Hate The United States And Are Current Goverment as much as he does.......
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Posted: 2004-06-16 23:22:15
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I simply cannot understand why people seem to put the blame for all the world's problems at the feet of the U.S. The other nations of the world are just as much to blame for the problems we face. Take Mugabe for instance, why does South Africa continue to support him despite the fact that the ordinary people of Zimbabwe are suffering so much? Without South African support I doubt whether the U.S. or Britain or anyone would need to intervene as Mugabe's regime would implode.
It is all too easy to blame America when we should in fact be looking at the real causes and solutions to the problems we face. The West takes too much blame for the world's problems, I hear people denouncing our values and our intentions, but not our money, or the food we send them, or the protection we afford them when their governments turn on them.
Having said that the West must also realise that it cannot police the world and that it needs to do more to distribute wealth and freedom to the rest of the world, not every country wants to be a democracy, but we can at least allow the people of each country to decide that for themselves and not impose our own beliefs and values upon them. Most people around the world share the same basic desires; to live in peace and to have the freedom to live their lives as they choose, unfortunately this cannot happen if the Western nations don’t realise that not everyone wants democracy, equally it cannot happen if the non-Western world continues to blame the West for all its problems instead of trying to sort them out.
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Posted: 2004-06-16 23:35:23
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@scotsboyuk=You said ""Having said that the West must also realise that it cannot police the world and that it needs to do more to distribute wealth and freedom to the rest of the world""

It would be nice to send Wealth but with a hostile envorment IE:Zimbawee who would u disprese the wealth to if the goverment will take it for themselves and not for there people....As for the Freedom i dont see how it is possible when the people are in fear for there lives to only way to do that is have a presence in any giving country tthat we are trying to Spread Freedom in,And we just dont have enough Man power for that to work...

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Posted: 2004-06-17 01:08:48
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Let just get one thing Straight guys..I do not hate America on the contrary i respect its freedom,values..Would love the culture if they had one..ooops sorry only joking .My hatred is with the current president.He alone has created more problems for the world then anyone can imagine.As soon hes kicked out of office we can all live in relative peace the better.The problem with us british is that we hate you americans for small things like you screwed up our language.and took all our chipies away and turned em into macdonalds.and you call us your cousins.which were are not.But hey i can live with that.Its when you want to introduce your idea of Democracy in countries that dont want or need it thats bothers me.Its like i said before and i will always say it.Respect other peoples culture and religion and way of life and you will get the same in return.Peace Guys!

Just to add a Small footnote to this:

Fresh News

Former US diplomats say Bush should be ousted in election

WASHINGTON, June 16 (Xinhuanet) -- More than two dozen former US diplomats and military leaders on Wednesday strongly criticized the foreign policy of President George W. Bush, saying he should not be re-elected in the November election.

"Bush adopted an overbearing approach to America's role in the world, relying upon military might and righteousness, insensitive to the concerns of traditional friends and allies, and disdainful of the United Nations," the group said in a statement.

The group, called Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change,noted its members include Democrats and Republicans who have "served every president since Harry S. Truman" in an effort to underscore that their concerns are bipartisan.

At a news conference here, group spokeswoman Phyllis Oakley said international respect for the United States is now "crumblingunder an administration blinded by ideology and a callous indifference to the realities of the world around it." Oakley was an assistant secretary of state for intelligence and research in the Clinton administration.

Charles Freeman, a career diplomat who has served both Republican and Democratic administrations, said the Bush administration complicated the situation in Iraq by insults to allies, the indifference to the views of partners in the region, and the general disdain for the United Nations and international organizations.

William Harrop, a career diplomat who retired in 1994 after 40 years of foreign service, said: "Obviously we think Senator (John)Kerry should be elected, but we are not here to speak for him. We are here to say there must be a change."

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher rejected the notion the United States has acted without consulting its allies. "We went to the United Nations on Iraq," he said. Enditem

via:
Reuters


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[ This Message was edited by: axxxr on 2004-06-17 03:44 ]
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Posted: 2004-06-17 04:42:29
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@ADT0079

The West is all to often looked to, to solve the world's problems; if it does it is criticised for intervening where it shouldn't, if it doesn't then it is criticised for not doing more to help. I would propose that regional powers should help to solve problems where they can e.g. South Africa can do a great deal to oust Mugabe and restore peace and prosperity to Zimbabwe, the West doesn't necessarily have to be directly involved. So too China could stop supporting North Korea and there would be little need of Western military intervention as the regime would, in all likelihood, implode.
Anti-Western sentiments have spread around the world and people are now blaming the West for every perceived problem in the world, it is certainly responsible for some problems, but I really do feel that other nations must start to take responsibility for their own actions.

@axxxr

I am also not a fan of George W. Bush and I would certainly like John Kerry to win the next U.S. election, but to be fair to Bush he has done some good things. As much as I detest his far right policies and attitude, I have to say that I am glad he hasn't shied away from fighting terrorism or caved into terrorist demands, however, this would probably have been the same result should Al Gore have been President.
I find it very sad that people attack the U.S. for no other reason than that they feel superior to Americans; at least you have provided a sound reason for your current lack of trust in the U.S.
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Posted: 2004-06-17 22:04:54
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@Axxxr & Scotsboy:

I too am not anti-american per se, like Axxxr I also dislike Bush and his policies, but not the US and it's way of life. Again, the US and what it stands for is certainly admirable, but I think that the 'American way' is pushed a bit too hard in the media, films and US-based websites, and other countries' traditions and ways of life are slowly been eroded by endless films, TV series, music videos etc. coming from the US and being beamed into the living rooms of families in countries around the globe.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with the American way of life, it's values, traditions and quirks, it's just that it shouldn't replace the ways of life in other countries. People in those countries are bound to get a bit pissed when everything they stand for is slowly eroded due to globalisation and the US (and perhaps to a much lesser extent the UK?) domination of things like movies, TV series, the internet, and products.
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Posted: 2004-06-17 22:40:40
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@Sammy_boy

I agree with you, but with some reservations. If people don't want their culture to be erode by foreign values then they should try to protect it, we are actually very good at doing that in Britain, chiefly because we absorb other cultures very easily and alter our existing culture accordingly; we have done this for millennia.
The concern over the dominance of American values is no different to the concern over the domination of British value sin the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, or of Roman values during the Roman Empire; the dominant power always comes under criticism. American values are on the whole very good and we have adopted quite a few of them in Britain as have other nations, but I would agree that we should do whatever we can to preserve our cultural identities.
We should also remember that a lot of the world is very Westernised because much of the planet was controlled by Western powers for centuries, so there are going to be areas of the world that want Western values and areas that do not. The Middle East is an area that the West didn't control for very long, relative to South America, Africa, or even parts of the Far East, so it is natural that they should be less inclined to adopt Western values. This isn't a bad thing, but it is a problem if we insist on forcing Western values upon the Middle East.
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Posted: 2004-06-17 22:50:10
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