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Im not denying the fact Iraq's are not pro-freedom or anti U.S no one is anti u.s..most people who are against america are just showing there dislike of Bush and his foreign policy.i would have been the first person to celebrate if Saddam was removed from power or assasinated for his crimes.But not by the Americans they had no right to be there since had already made the country suffer from the previous gulf war.The only people who had the right to remove saddam was Iraqi people themselves and no one else.The handover date does'nt mean anything its just a token gesture by bush does'nt mean anything..It will however mean something when 100% of the forces withdraw and a 100% u.n army is brought it..but you know and i know that will never happen.
In regards to my my picture of bush in his nazi form as i said before
If anything that picture shows that the same mindset that was responsible for the Holocauset and oppression of gypies,homosexuals and other faiths and casts.Still exists today and thats history repeating itself..just now its the Muslims turn...It enforces the idea that evil is still alive today as it was back then...and we are still turning a blind eye to it all!...I have many Iraqi friends who are happy that saddam has been removed but they categoricaly do not agree with methods...You also say there is world of difference between nazi germany and & the u.s..The difference is enough to make a comparison..Before it was the poor jews who suffered now its the Muslims..The Muslims are being persicuted by america and its policies everywhere.Go to Palestine and you will see muslims men.women 7 children shot outside there doorstep for being muslim..In iraq & Afghanistan muslims are being killed by american soilders everyday and American policy is responsible for that.
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Posted: 2004-06-15 04:38:23
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Posted: 2004-06-15 05:19:58
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On 2004-06-15 04:38:23, axxxr wrote:
...The only people who had the right to remove saddam was Iraqi people themselves and no one else.The handover date does'nt mean anything its just a token gesture by bush does'nt mean anything..It will however mean something when 100% of the forces withdraw and a 100% u.n army is brought it..but you know and i know that will never happen.
but since the UN repeatedly failed to act when it should have, someone had to step in. even the UN doesn't have the right to enforce it's rule on a sovereign nation, but the declaration of human rights supersedes that prohibition. the UN will never go into Iraq now, partly because it thinks it doesn't need to but also because to do so now would be to admit it was wrong not to go in the first place. it's one thing to say that the only people with the right to remove saddam were the iraqis, but they had no means for doing so. under such conditions the rest of the world was obliged to get involved, even if they didn't have a "right" to.
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On 2004-06-15 04:38:23, axxxr wrote:
...The Muslims are being persicuted by america and its policies everywhere.Go to Palestine and you will see muslims men.women 7 children shot outside there doorstep for being muslim..In iraq & Afghanistan muslims are being killed by american soilders everyday and American policy is responsible for that.
this is the misapprehension i cannot understand. the US, and/or Bush, is NOT anti-muslim per se, but it/his stance on some issues requires that they act against the interests of certain islamic states. this is much different from being against all muslims, and a distinction which is very important. i don't want to get into another debate over the relative merits of israel vs. palestine. suffice to say i believe every race deserves a land they can call home, free from tyranny, oppression and war of any sort. with respect to iraq and afghanistan, it's overly simplistic to say that "americans are killing muslims". they're not killing them BECAUSE they are muslims, but mostly because they think they are being attacked and/or threatened, or because they are insurgents or extremists. there are non-muslim non-US deaths in iraq too, but they seem to get overlooked.
finally, i am not pro-Bush by any stretch of the imagination. i think the guy is a poorly educated, inept gimboid, with more than a few dodgy deals in his past. the other thing to remember is that he isn't the only one making the decisions. i would guarantee that his advisors are largely responsible for the policies currently in place.
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Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where people talk to him[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2004-06-15 04:58 ]
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Posted: 2004-06-15 05:56:43
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@gelfen:
Those pictures are funny!!
I have to say I'm not sure about the Nazi thing - sorry @Axxxr! I agree with Gelfen, whilst I also think that Mr. Bush is a complete total, and utter smeghead, he's not a nazi (yet?). I can see where you're coming from, the fact that he seems to ride roughshod over world opinion and has his own selfish opinion, but I also suspect he isn't behind many of these policies, it's people behind the scenes doing this. I've seen a programme a while back on these 'Neo Conservatives' that are behind Bush, and that they are behind a lot of what he does. He seems too stupid to me to be able to make decisions on his own about invasions, etc. Or maybe that's why we're in the mess we're in now - someone left him on his own in the White House for more than 5 minutes - and when they came back the Bonehead had invaded Iraq!
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Posted: 2004-06-15 12:09:16
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Gelfen said: Quote
but since the UN repeatedly failed to act when it should have, someone had to step in. even the UN doesn't have the right to enforce it's rule on a sovereign nation, but the declaration of human rights supersedes that prohibition. the UN will never go into Iraq now, partly because it thinks it doesn't need to but also because to do so now would be to admit it was wrong not to go in the first place. it's one thing to say that the only people with the right to remove saddam were the iraqis, but they had no means for doing so. under such conditions the rest of the world was obliged to get involved, even if they didn't have a "right" to.
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The U.N is failed to act coz they were not allowed to act ..there hands were tied.If the U.S really had good intention for Iraq and its people the they could empowered the U.N to go in and given them Assistance.But we all U.N is run and controled by the CIA and the pentagon.The U.N could'nt be situated in a worse country.The iraqi's could have been given external help i.e funding.weapons ect.Its not as if the U.S hasn't assasinated or help asasisnate leaders before.
Gelfen said: Quote
this is the misapprehension i cannot understand. the US, and/or Bush, is NOT anti-muslim per se, but it/his stance on some issues requires that they act against the interests of certain islamic states. this is much different from being against all muslims, and a distinction which is very important. i don't want to get into another debate over the relative merits of israel vs. palestine. suffice to say i believe every race deserves a land they can call home, free from tyranny, oppression and war of any sort. with respect to iraq and afghanistan, it's overly simplistic to say that "americans are killing muslims". they're not killing them BECAUSE they are muslims, but mostly because they think they are being attacked and/or threatened, or because they are insurgents or extremists. there are non-muslim non-US deaths in iraq too, but they seem to get overlooked.
finally, i am not pro-Bush by any stretch of the imagination. i think the guy is a poorly educated, inept gimboid, with more than a few dodgy deals in his past. the other thing to remember is that he isn't the only one making the decisions
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Gelfen how can you say that Bush isn't anti-muslim..fair enough they don't stand up and admit it.but thats what they inherantly are.I remember a U.S general saying a few months back Quote: Islam is the Enemy and Must be erradicated from the U.S and the world.He did get a telling off for that remark from the whitehouse.Because it was the truth that came out.That basically sums it all up.a U.S soilder said a while back that in there trainings in Iraq they are asked during parade why they are in Iraq and all the Soldiers shout together OIL SIR!!..then there commander says to them NO YOU NEVER SAY THAT!!..WHAT DO YOU SAY?says the commander?..LIBERATE THE PEOPLE SIR!!..No one is blind to the fact about What America intentions are in the Gulf..People should wake up to fact and see who the real enemy is..U.S soilders have said themselves that they shoot Quote:As manyMuslim Rag head scum as they can,when going out for patrols in iraq...I know that Bush isn't the only one pulling the strings in Iraq and the world but its his signiture that authorises everything and.And its him and his administration that should be blamed.
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Posted: 2004-06-15 17:52:34
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Posted: 2004-06-15 18:13:00
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@axxxr - Just a point of observation here mate . . . Discussing Pres. Bush (stupidity) in a public debate will never really end, I told you then and I am telling it again to you now! Friendship may just turn out to be your foes at your own choosing @axxxr . . . My stand about him will still remain mate, between him and Kerr, I'd rather choose him. He may not be a better choice, but I stand with his decision when he invaded Iraq and get rid of Saddam! It's just that I really do not understand why so many 'STUPID' Iraqi people like Saddam to (still) rule their country, while rather choosing in imposing a new set of government??? Hand over will take place in 2 weeks time from now. Peace here my friend @axxxr!
@gelfen - I totally agree with your opinion/replies here!
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Posted: 2004-06-15 20:21:24
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What does that supposed to mean JoJo??..I am not going to change my opinions on a Murdering Idiot like Bush just coz some people get offended!..However it does'nt offend you too see hundreds of dead bodies on the streets of Iraq and elsewhere.
JoJo you have your opinions and i have mine..But now your threating me with with being my foe..just coz i hate Mr Bush..If thats the way you want it then so be it.I'm not asking you to change your stand on him...thats upto you!but dont ask me to change mine either coz that will never happen ok..JoJo who are to say what the Iraqi people should have and who they want to lead them..have you forgotton one small fact that its there country.As far as handover is concerned it does'nt mean nothing..It wont bring peace and stability in Iraq ..All thanx to your Mr bush.
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Posted: 2004-06-15 20:32:08
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@axxxr - Nope! I don't want you to change your stand on such issues, also, I do presume that you also expect the same thing with that of the other party. I close my case here mate . . . before untoward incidents occur! I do respect our friendship to be intact mate, somehow you also felt how it feels to have 'some' 'enemy-members' here . . . speaking from my past experience (here at esato), I don't !!!
So, 'que sera sera' mate!
Friends till the end OK ?
Cheers!
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Posted: 2004-06-15 20:48:07
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JoJo i respect your opinion but at the same time you should respect mine also...I have'nt started this thread to change anyones opinion or choice.I am mearly bringing to notice my and a opinion of many millions of people on what we think about g.w.bush.It is purely an individual choice if they accept it or not..Your taking this all to personaly.I am expressing my freedom to air my opinions thats all.I don't intend to spoil friendships or anything with you or anyone.But i will continue to to carry on what i'm doing.As far as enemy members here are concerned,It does'mt really bother me if anyone does'nt like me..I have my critics on esato.But i have many more friends..I hope we will stay as a friends!.
Cheers!!
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Posted: 2004-06-16 02:25:31
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