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@SuperG
Fair enough.
I can see why you would have skipped Turkey, but Ukraine is a part of Europe.
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Posted: 2005-05-16 19:08:13
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Thous countries amount to almost half of the European population ? That strengthen even more my point - a EDGE handset is not 'almost useless' in Europe - as suggested by someone in this thread ! And yes Ukraine is very much part of Europe ! Actually is ways bigger the the averiege European country. Greetings from South Africa. Mario.
This message was posted from a Nokia 7650
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Posted: 2005-05-17 09:27:42
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On 2005-05-16 14:53:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
It is a shame that you seem to have devoted all your time to mathematics and not bothered with basic grammar. Words tend to be written in grammatical sentences (or as close as one's ability allows) and not mathematical notation. Then there is also the fact that one tends to work from left to right in English in the manner of GPRS/EDGE/UMTS.
It doesn't hurt knowing both math and grammar. Or are these two also competing things that cannot be fit to one person?
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On 2005-05-16 14:53:54, scotsboyuk wrote:
Certainly:
[scotsboyuk's commentary: Ok chaps in this one we see orange inferring from goldenface's post that both UMTS anf EDGE can happily coexist with one another, in other words he thinks that the networks can use both.]
Yes, that's what I said. They CAN coexist and they CAN use both. Not saying that they SHOULD. Last time I checked, these two words had different meaning.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
[scotsboyuk's commentary: Again we see orange saying that EDGE and WCDMA can co-exist, this time in the same handset. Now notice the end part of his statement; he is basically saying that a handset can have both EDGE and WCDMA and by implication then that the networks should support such features (why else include them?).]
Yes, again I'm saying that they CAN coexist and actually do coexist in some devices. Don't try to twist my words to the way it wasn't meant to be. I didn't say they SHOULD. That's just the way you like to interpret it for obvious reasons.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
[scotsboyuk's commentary: More implication chaps, here orange says that it is 'radical' to say that SE will never bring EDGE enabled phones to Europe. orange not being stupid obviously realises that SE will only bring products to the European market that the major operators (Vodafone, T-Mobile, etc) want, so again we have the implication that the networks should use EDGE, how else would SE sell such devices?]
Again you're trying to put words to my mouth. That was just a general comment saying that you don't know something for sure or as a fact, unless you're there to decide about these things. I like to play with pure facts where you seem to ride with predictions and hunches.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
[scotsboyuk's commentary: Here we se eorange actually outlining his vision for how the networks should implement data services! Notice that he includes EDGE in this vision (for some reason he has decided to use the lesser used EGPRS acronym). So here we have it, the actual model of how networks should use EDGE alongside WCDMA.]
Sorry for repeating myself, but again it's you saying SHOULD while I'm actually saying CAN.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Well apart from seemingly having more patience than you do, I would also like to think that I have a somewhat better understanding of the timescales involved in such processes.
Working over 5 years in the telecommunication business does bring some understanding here, especially about the timescales.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Converting an entire continent with hundreds of millions of mobile users at different levels of technological sophistication and financial ability takes time.
Yes, exactly. It's just your words, "Takes time" and "rapid", which are not exactly in line with each other.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Could it have something to do with the fact that Nokia is a much larger manufacturer than SE and actively competes in almost every mobile market on Earth, including those that use EDGE? It is a relatively simple concept to follow; SE's core markets don't use EDGE, hence few EDGE handsets.
Yes, It could have something to do with the fact you said, I don't know nor do you. The other fact is that in the volume wise Europe is the most important market by far for Nokia also ie. the area you're saying is SE's core market. So, in your words, Nokia's core market don't use EDGE and still Nokia has implemented it. Did they do that just for fun?
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Last year (2004) was 3G's best year in Europe and on a global scale there was a subscriber growth rate of approximately 500%.
Don't get blinded about those figures. Yes 2004 was the best year, and basically the first, for 3G in Europe. It isn't actually that hard to get 500% growth. It's enough when you go from none to five.
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Not at all, you have selectively chosen a single handset and tried to make a generalisation from it. Where are the other Nokia 3G handsets selling at those levels? The biggest selling 3G handset(s) in the UK market, for example, are the LG 8110/20/30.
Do you have some facts/figures on this or do we have to count on your guess on this?
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Nokia has released relatively few 3G handsets in comparison with its overall portfolio and certainly hasn't had as huge impact upon global 3G sales as it does with regards to 2.5G sales.
Nokia is selling three 3G devices at the moment. Is the amount of selling 3G devices from other vendors noticeably higher?
BTW. Have you ever considered a political career? If not, you should definitely consider it. As the politicians also talk much, but are not actually saying anything...
[ This Message was edited by: orange on 2005-05-17 09:33 ]
[ This Message was edited by: orange on 2005-05-17 09:36 ]
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Posted: 2005-05-17 10:30:23
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1 Quarter of all Nokia releases this year (about 10 handsets) will be 3G as it see more 3G expansion in Asian markets.
[ This Message was edited by: goldenface on 2005-05-17 12:05 ]
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Posted: 2005-05-17 12:15:44
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@orange
Would it be putting words into your mouth, therefore, to suggest that all you are telling us is what CAN currently be done, which it seems fairly obvious we already know?
Or are you just being pedantic?
It is always a sign that you are losing an argument when it becomes based on semantics
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Posted: 2005-05-17 18:12:30
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On 2005-05-17 18:12:30, dave_uk wrote:
@orange
Would it be putting words into your mouth, therefore, to suggest that all you are telling us is what CAN currently be done, which it seems fairly obvious we already know?
Yep, I also wonder why someone has to argue about it then?
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On 2005-05-17 18:12:30, dave_uk wrote:
Or are you just being pedantic?
Yep, that too. It's due to a technical background I have and a technical environment where I'm working. There's no afford to be a superficial.
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On 2005-05-17 18:12:30, dave_uk wrote:
It is always a sign that you are losing an argument when it becomes based on semantics
...or when it comes twisting words into form that they weren't meant to be.
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Posted: 2005-05-18 10:17:19
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@Orange. Indeed I think we have all suffered from the "twisting of wording" or
TWORDING, which is what I think it should be called from now on
I try and keep to the original question as much as possible when replying otherwise discussions tend to degenerate into a slanderous 'BitchFest'
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Posted: 2005-05-18 10:50:47
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On 2005-05-17 10:30:23, orange wrote:
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It doesn't hurt knowing both math and grammar. Or are these two also competing things that cannot be fit to one person?
Why I do believe you just made a funny!
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[scotsboyuk's commentary: Ok chaps in this one we see orange inferring from goldenface's post that both UMTS anf EDGE can happily coexist with one another, in other words he thinks that the networks can use both.]
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Yes, that's what I said. They CAN coexist and they CAN use both. Not saying that they SHOULD. Last time I checked, these two words had different meaning.
In other words you agree with my comments ...
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[scotsboyuk's commentary: Again we see orange saying that EDGE and WCDMA can co-exist, this time in the same handset. Now notice the end part of his statement; he is basically saying that a handset can have both EDGE and WCDMA and by implication then that the networks should support such features (why else include them?).]
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Yes, again I'm saying that they CAN coexist and actually do coexist in some devices. Don't try to twist my words to the way it wasn't meant to be. I didn't say they SHOULD. That's just the way you like to interpret it for obvious reasons.
In other words you agree with my comments ...
I don't think I have ever been described as 'obvious' before; it's always nice when one has a new adjective applied to one.
To continue my patronising, yet jaunty, tone I should ask what these 'obvious reasons' are?
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[scotsboyuk's commentary: More implication chaps, here orange says that it is 'radical' to say that SE will never bring EDGE enabled phones to Europe. orange not being stupid obviously realises that SE will only bring products to the European market that the major operators (Vodafone, T-Mobile, etc) want, so again we have the implication that the networks should use EDGE, how else would SE sell such devices?]
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Again you're trying to put words to my mouth. That was just a general comment saying that you don't know something for sure or as a fact, unless you're there to decide about these things. I like to play with pure facts where you seem to ride with predictions and hunches.
I could need an eye test and new glasses, but I rather think I see a wee pattern emerging here ... Yes that's right ... In other words you agree with my comments ...
I don't believe I have put words into your mouth (or hands as the case may be), I simply quoted your own verbose meanderings. If you find your words unnacceptable then perhaps you shouldn't write them?
Rather interestingly you state that you made a general comment i.e. a generalisation then go on to state that you "...like to play with pure facts..."; a rather quixotic mixture wouldn't you say?
Incidentally I have never used hunches, although I did once consider going for the part of Richard III, but an inflamed instep cut my acting career short.
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[scotsboyuk's commentary: Here we se eorange actually outlining his vision for how the networks should implement data services! Notice that he includes EDGE in this vision (for some reason he has decided to use the lesser used EGPRS acronym). So here we have it, the actual model of how networks should use EDGE alongside WCDMA.]
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Sorry for repeating myself, but again it's you saying SHOULD while I'm actually saying CAN.
I too must apologise for repeating myself, but this sentence is begging like a tramp at a cash machine for our old friend ... In other words you agree with my comments ...
Despite a propensity for olympic standard inverted peddling, the meaning of your statements is clear enough.
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Working over 5 years in the telecommunication business does bring some understanding here, especially about the timescales.
You dont happen to work for SE do you? If so then please don't give Mr Flint too much sugar with his tea, it's bad for him. Joking aside (although there isn't much else to do by this point) I am actually astonished that you have any formal connection with the telecommunications industry! So much so in fact, that I have instructed my accountant to invest heavily in companys, which produce flying goggles for pigs.
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Yes, exactly. It's just your words, "Takes time" and "rapid", which are not exactly in line with each other.
I stand by my statements. At any rate I thought you were just the chap for conflicting terms ...
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Could it have something to do with the fact that Nokia is a much larger manufacturer than SE and actively competes in almost every mobile market on Earth, including those that use EDGE? It is a relatively simple concept to follow; SE's core markets don't use EDGE, hence few EDGE handsets.
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Yes ...
I'll take that as agreement.
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It could have something to do with the fact you said, I don't know nor do you.
I'll take that as making little sense.
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The other fact is that in the volume wise Europe is the most important market by far for Nokia also ie. the area you're saying is SE's core market. So, in your words, Nokia's core market don't use EDGE and still Nokia has implemented it. Did they do that just for fun?
Well perhaps those Nokia chaps were bored of an afternoon? Seriously though (and there really is precious little to temper my grin in this thread anymore) you seem to be overlooking the simple facts.
Nokia are a very large company who directly compete in more markets than SE do. Nokia also sells a lot more handsets in EDGE enabled markets than SE does, someone who works in telecommunications (how lucky, you do I believe?) would no doubt tell you that it therefore makes sense for Nokia to include EDGE in their products.
SE sell most of their products in Western Europe and Japan, neither of which utilise EDGE to any great extent (or at all in most cases). SE is also a rather wee affair in comparison to Nokia. These facts combined give a good explanation of why SE don't release many EDGE enabled handsets.
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Don't get blinded about those figures.
Who said that?
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Yes 2004 was the best year, and basically the first, for 3G in Europe. It isn't actually that hard to get 500% growth. It's enough when you go from none to five.
Europe had 3G prior to 2004 old chum. I should also point out that 2.5G expanded in much the same way as 3G is now doing i.e. massive growth rates, which will eventually fall as saturation takes hold.
Now on a serious note I have to register my disappointment! Here I am slaving away over long replies to your otherwise entertaining posts and you can't even check a date! That really is rather sloppy, a bit of a poor showing there old man. Let's try and keep the high standard of these posts up there with the best of them shall we?
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Not at all, you have selectively chosen a single handset and tried to make a generalisation from it. Where are the other Nokia 3G handsets selling at those levels? The biggest selling 3G handset(s) in the UK market, for example, are the LG 8110/20/30.
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Do you have some facts/figures on this or do we have to count on your guess on this?
Only if you are wearing goggles so that you don't get blinded by them ... I apparently own a pig goggle factory in China now, but they aren't darkened goggles so they shan't be much use to you I'm afraid.
Usability by Design (a consultancy form to mobile manufacturers) rates LG as being the leading 3G manufacturer, not only in the UK, but Europe as a whole. LG's market share is approximately 7% after one year of selling their handsets through 3 alone, with further growth expected. LG expect their UK market share to climb to somewhere between 10-15% once the other networks adopt their handsets (currently Orange has done so).
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On 2005-05-10 05:30:23, scotsboyuk wrote:
Nokia has released relatively few 3G handsets in comparison with its overall portfolio and certainly hasn't had as huge impact upon global 3G sales as it does with regards to 2.5G sales.
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Nokia is selling three 3G devices at the moment. Is the amount of selling 3G devices from other vendors noticeably higher?
Come come, you're the maths chap you should be able to bash this one out surely?
Nokia currently have 65 handsets available from their UK website (including upcoming models), seven of these are 3G models (including upcoming models). This then represents 10.77% of their overall portfolio currently available.
SE currently have 28 handsets available from thei UK website (including upcoming models), 4 of which are 3G. This would then represent 14.29% of their overall portfolio currently available. Now if one considers the V800 and the Z800 one and the same then the figure is 11.11%.
LG's figure, based upon the same methodology, is 33.33%. (3 devices)
Motorola's figure, based upon the same methodology, is 19.36%. (6 devices)
Samsung's figure, based upon the same methodology, is 4% (so far the only major manufacturer who has a figure lower than Nokia). (1 device)
Nokia actually have more 3G devices than other manufacturers (including upcoming devices), but the overall percentage of 3G devices as part of their product portfolio is the lowest apart from Samsung. Now of course one should realise that there shall be more 3G devices from the othe rmanufacturers this year and no doubt Nokia's 3G portfolio shall rise, but it does seem rather astounding that the largest mobile phone manufacturere in the world should have relatively few 3G mobiles.
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BTW. Have you ever considered a political career? If not, you should definitely consider it. As the politicians also talk much, but are not actually saying anything...
I have been involved in politics before ( a vicious battle to get on the school council ensued, but a spot of political maneuvering secured my seat and a round of rather delish biscuits at each meeting).
I think I might be better as a psychiatrist as they often have to listen to innane chit chat and repeat simple advice many times over ...
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-18 14:32 ]
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-05-18 14:33 ]
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Posted: 2005-05-18 14:08:19
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ooops, just fell off my perch.
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Posted: 2005-05-18 14:24:48
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...and the winner and NEW HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF ESATO is..........
SCOTSBOYUK
Pick up your Blue Peter badge on your way out!
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Posted: 2005-05-18 15:20:24
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