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gelfen Posts: > 500

The U.N is failed to act coz they were not allowed to act ..there hands were tied.If the U.S really had good intention for Iraq and its people the they could empowered the U.N to go in and given them Assistance.But we all U.N is run and controled by the CIA and the pentagon.The U.N could'nt be situated in a worse country.The iraqi's could have been given external help i.e funding.weapons ect.Its not as if the U.S hasn't assasinated or help asasisnate leaders before.

prior to the coalition invasion of iraq the US made several attempts to get the UN to go instead with a unilateral force. If the CIA and/or pentagon really controlled the UN (which I doubt anyone seriously believes) then why did the UN not agree to go? I’ll tell you why, because various member nations were giving kickbacks to Saddam for cut price oil in the “oil for food” swindle. This scandal broke several months ago, when one of Iraq's many new newspapers named 270 people and organizations it said had been bought off with cheap oil issued to them by Saddam through the UN Oil-for-Food program. This list, drawn from the records of the Iraqi Oil Ministry, consisted of influential people from around the world. Perhaps unsurprisingly many were from France, Russia and China, the three UN Security Council countries that tried so hard to stop the other two, the US and Britain, from toppling Saddam and liberating Iraq. and that’s not the only festering sore in the UN. Sudan was recently voted to head the UN human rights commission, despite that country’s long and continuing history of human rights abuses. Sudan joined other member nations Guinea, Togo, Pakistan and Malaysia as well as such champions of human rights as Cuba, Egypt, China, Congo, Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe. There’s no way the UN can be taken seriously anymore. if you want a conspiracy, have a look at one that’s real.

Gelfen how can you say that Bush isn't anti-muslim..fair enough they don't stand up and admit it.but thats what they inherantly are.I remember a U.S general saying a few months back Quote: Islam is the Enemy and Must be erradicated from the U.S and the world.He did get a telling off for that remark from the whitehouse.Because it was the truth that came out.That basically sums it all up.a U.S soilder said a while back that in there trainings in Iraq they are asked during parade why they are in Iraq and all the Soldiers shout together OIL SIR!!..then there commander says to them NO YOU NEVER SAY THAT!!..WHAT DO YOU SAY?says the commander?..LIBERATE THE PEOPLE SIR!!..No one is blind to the fact about What America intentions are in the Gulf..People should wake up to fact and see who the real enemy is..U.S soilders have said themselves that they shoot Quote:As manyMuslim Rag head scum as they can,when going out for patrols in iraq...I know that Bush isn't the only one pulling the strings in Iraq and the world but its his signiture that authorises everything and.And its him and his administration that should be blamed.

NEWS FLASH: individual members of US armed forces are racist, while others are cynics. in other late-breaking news; fossil fuels cause pollution, guns can kill, and birds seen flying.

Seriously though, how can you say (incontrovertibly) that Bush is anti-muslim? He is responding to a perceived threat. Whether he perceives the threat correctly is open to debate, but the response would be the same regardless of the race or religion of those he thought posed it. US policy is not inherently racist – it is inherently self-serving.

Providing a few quotes devoid of context doesn’t prove much unless you heard what came before and what came after. There’s no way a journo after a story was going to provide anything other than the single most damaging remarks he heard. You can’t say the general in question wasn’t chastised just because it never made the news. There’s no story in “General chastised for racist remark” or “General punished for remarks we published out of context because he was really being sarcastic or it was immediately after he had witnessed his two best buddies being killed by insurgents, or we went looking for the biggest redneck we could find”, because it shows the US in a favourable light. I can guarantee that after that particular grab was broadcast he would have been slowly roasted over hot coals in his superior’s office. I’m inclined to think the so-called training drill could merely have been a stunt rather than a serious incident too.

The mere fact the US, along with a majority of western nations, provides a society in which one can criticize and expose the wrongdoing of its leaders, in which minority groups are guaranteed the same rights as the majority under the law, and which is willing to fight to give those rights to others, shows it is ahead of the game. No matter how bad you may claim Bush and/or the US is with respect to Iraq, it is certainly a lot better than what preceded it.

_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man

Gelfen's special place where people talk to him

[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2004-06-16 02:34 ]
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Posted: 2004-06-16 03:33:08
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axxxr Posts: > 500

There is evidence to the fact the America and Pentagon have influenced United Nations to act in there favour.They is also overwhelming evidence that Mr bush decided to invade Iraq even before he was sworn in as president.With all the lies they told about WMD's in front of the world at the U.N.How can you trust a president and a nation to that lies at the U.N..Its basically shows the blatent disrespect they have for the organisation.So what else must they be doing?.You must have heard that MI6 had planted bugs in Kofi Annan's office.I'm sure so had the CIA.In the end the British foreign minister had to applogise to Kofi Annan in person.America just uses the U.N for when it suits there purpose.

I think gelfen this discussion is going nowhere and you will not back down from what you believe in.but let me tell you this.What America is trying to show the world and wants people such as yourself to believe this nonsense they are putting out.I for one will be suckered into this Freedom garbage..I don't and will not ever trust the intentions of the Bush administration.Until i see America take equal action against all oppresson and tyrants in this world.And when i see a Free Palestine and a Free North Korea and a Free zimbabwe i will always speak my mind.

I think this is where we have to end this debate.Thanx very much for an interesting debate.We will however continue in the Al-Qaida thread..There is always something to discuss.
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Posted: 2004-06-16 04:33:05
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gelfen Posts: > 500

i'm happy to wrap this debate here. i was just hoping to point out that the situation was much more complex than the trendy far-left propoganda that seems so prevalent in both the media and online discussions (and i'm sorry to say, some of your posts). i am not for one instant blind to the ulterior motives of the US, but american history is littered with examples of fighting for freedom from oppression so i think people should at least consider giving them the benefit of the doubt.

i think the UN is rapidly becoming its own little "evil empire" where the principles on which it was founded hold little, if any, meaning. we can only hope that the Western powers get around to the other problems plaguing the world in due time, before the situation is irretrievable.

look forward to many future debates mate.

EDIT: link to the Al-Qaeda thread for those who are interested

http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=61145

_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man

Gelfen's special place where people talk to him

[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2004-06-16 09:24 ]
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Posted: 2004-06-16 10:20:00
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*Jojo* Posts: > 500

@axxxr - Friends till the very end . . . .of this thread ??? Ciao !

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Posted: 2004-06-16 15:00:40
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axxxr Posts: > 500

Ok jojo friends all the way mate!

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::Truth Uncovered::
::Bush Who?::

[ This Message was edited by: axxxr on 2004-06-16 21:31 ]
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Posted: 2004-06-16 22:30:40
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*Jojo* Posts: > 500

@axxxr - Looks like you are really fond of 'transforming' President George W. Bush's image with that of 'Hitler' ! Well, for the love of the game of this thread, I'll be posting the Hitler of Formula 1 race! The leading contender at present for the 2004 Season!

Michael Schumacher at his best: