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@Vlammetje
Tony Blair may think he can do whatever he likes, but the ultimate power in Britain still rests with the voters. If people really want rid of Blair then they will vote him out of office at the next General Election.
My point wa smore to do with each nation being able to decide its own affairs and not having unelected Commissioners imposing rules and regulations upon everyone.
Europe isn't a single country and hasn't been anywhere close to being united since the days of the Roman Empire, we have to respect those differences, they are what make us European. Closer ties allow us live and work together in peace, but without losing our identities in the process.
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Posted: 2004-05-26 15:14:46
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Scot> The laws, rules, regulations imposed by the EU are already there. This is not the purpose of a Constitution. And a Constitution does not imply automatically that each nation disappears. After all the EU Constitution could well simply state the present situation, with a bit of philosophy around it, like saying that Human rights have to be followed by each member or that state and religion have to be separated or whatever in the same vein.
At least, that's how I see a EU Constitution.
And I agree, what makes us strong when compared to the US for example, is our differences and we should protect them.
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Posted: 2004-05-26 15:33:02
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i see nothing wrong with a shared consitution. isn't our constitution what gives us the right to certain freedoms?
Woudn't it be nice if those were shared throughout the continent?
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Posted: 2004-05-26 15:42:20
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@michka
I am not claiming that the constitution will impose new laws and regulations on EU members; what I ma saying is that it is completely unnecessary. Your point about respecting Human Rights is important, but surely no nation that doesn't respect Human Rights should be allowed to join the EU in the first place!
To expand on this a little; the EU doesn't need a constitution, each nation has its own constitution (with the exception of the UK), and I feel that those are all that is needed. A blanket constitution won't do anything except create more red tape and bureaucracy, the basic rights and freedoms we enjoy are already perquisites for entry to the EU, and so it seems pointless to have another document to say what is already said in national constitutions.
The only thing an EU constitution is needed for is to pave the way for the creation of a European super state. It is interesting to note that such a super state really wouldn't give us any great advantages that we don't already have. If Europe can be brought closer together in terms of economic policy, trade, military, and justice, whilst still maintaining the independence of its constituent nations then we will be able to effectively challenge U.S. domination over these areas, and hopefully spread a little European common sense around the world. Remember that Europe has dominated the world far longer than anyone else; we can do so again, but hopefully this time without the injustices of the colonial era.
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Posted: 2004-05-26 15:48:22
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Scot> I do not agree with you in the sense that what you say about prerequisites and the like are not written. You also have to forecast the problems: what if one of the states suddenly changes its own constitution? And becomes, say (and this is only an example) an islamic republic governed by the charia? If there is no written rule somewhere and signed by the members, what can you do about it?
It is not necessary to have a marital contract to live happily together. But what happens if one of the members of the couple decides to break? What about the children? what about the goods, assets, home, car, furniture, ...?
This paper (Constitution) has the merit to put everything flat down, so that in case of disagreement, one can make reference to it.
That's all it is made for. And I don't think it is (or has to be) a way towards a superstate.
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Posted: 2004-05-26 17:39:22
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I've heard a few rumours that this constitution has some reference to christianity in it - is that just a rumour? Because I wouldn't be comfortable with any constitution that forces or otherwise persuades people to practice a certain religion.
@michka - if each country already has a constitution that would stop someone imposing Sharia law or something else in it, then surely a European constitution would be redundant? The only country that could do with drawing up a constitution would be the UK, as we don't really have one. And besides, I suspect that most people in each European country wouldn't allow someone to impose anything undemocratic, and all rise up till that person or persons all buggered off? Just a thought.....
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Posted: 2004-05-26 19:28:51
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Sammy> Yes, some countries (mainly Italy, Poland) want to have a strong reference to christianity in the Constitution. I also am stronly against it. The only way to garantee freedom of religion is to have stricltly no reference to one of them in particular.
And as I said before, just like for marriage, if everything goes well you don't need a paper. However, if something goes wrong, it is far better that the rules are written in advance and signed by all parties.
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Posted: 2004-05-26 19:51:17
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What does Sharia law have common with EU. Maybe Michka meant that
Afganistan will join to EU.Otherwise i cant imagine Sharia law in EU.
Hope I am right, sharia law is strick islamic way of life according this law.
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Posted: 2004-05-26 19:53:05
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Boto> Turkey?
Agreed, the turkish constitution garantees the separation between state and religion. But for how much time? The most influencal party now is of islamic strict obedience. And if they get a majority, who can be sure that the turkish constitution will not be changed?
What if this happens just when Turkey has been approved as a EU member?
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Posted: 2004-05-27 01:41:24
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An EU constitution really isn't necessary at all michka and I shall explain why. If any EU nation should suddenly start behaving in a way contrary to the laws of the EU (i.e. the Human Rights Act) then I can very well imagine that most if not all of the other EU members would impose sanctions on that member and if that proved unsuccessful in changing that state's human rights policies, the state in question would probably be expelled from the EU.
To gain membership to the EU, a nation must satisfy certain criteria, and democracy and a fair and just legal system are two of the most important of those criteria. We should be proud to be European in that we have no death penalty within the EU; we have laws safeguarding human rights; we have laws to protect freedom of speech; we have freedom of religion; we have legislation in place to stop discrimination on the basis of race, sexuality, age, religion or anything else for that matter, and most importantly of all we have freedom itself. A constitution would be a step towards a European super state, a step towards greater bureaucracy and interference and a step away from the freedoms we enjoy today.
I am thankful that I was born, not only as a Briton, but as a European.
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2004-05-27 02:02 ]
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Posted: 2004-05-27 02:23:31
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