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Quote:...back to the first post of the topic and some of the comments there, I would like to ask: why Israel should exist?
if we look at the map of some years a go there is not a country named Israel there.
If you look at a map of the world 'some years ago' there were several countries that exist today not listed.
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wipping a country off the map is not necesserily need to nuclear bomb, even to war. I think diplomacy can also wipe a country off the map.
as you can see, these days some real questions has been posed about the existence of Israel. The questions that non of the supporters of Israel
even wants to speak about them...questions that medias want to understate them...
I think if the people of the world be awaked about the genocide occuring on the palestine, the chimerical reasons of Israel's existence, and more important, the paradoxical situation of the nowadays world, there wouldn't be any need to war. because it is the people who elect their diplomats.
Ignoring the hyperbole contained within your comment you really make no point at all. What is your basis for saying that Israel shouldn't exist? That it doesn't appear on a pre-1950s map?
The fact of the matter is that Israel does exist and it is going to continue existing whether those opposed to Israel like it or not. The sooner those who oppose Israel accept that and the sooner the hardline Israelis accept they are going to have to give up land the sooner there can be peace.
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Posted: 2006-05-12 20:52:51
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@scotsboyuk
Certainly shape of the map in what years a go is not important. I mentioned to it just for saying that Israel is not more deep-rooted to give up effort.
if other countries that were not existed years a go and now listed, has massacred a lands people and maked a country, they also should answer to the reminders of that people. but this several countries are not important to me because they have killed people years ago & those days I weren't, then I think I have no real duty about it. but now I live in a time that see the genocide on Palestian people, then its every of us duty to defend them against Israel.
I asked why Israel should exist or what is the basis for saying Israel should exist? you said what is the basis for saying that Israel shouldn't exist?
any way, I think there is no use for us to have a racist country in the world, a country that there is no warranty to dont want to expand his occupation. to a country that dont hew to any national law...
despite all of this, if some people wish to make a country; OK, they can make it. but please do not kill the people & occupy other countries. get the land from your friends or build artificial islands or in some negotiations get the land... but occupying other countries and then say :let's have a negotiation to give you half of your land, is some thing like joke. if you don't accept this offer,it proves that you are terorist...ultrajoke
do you like to submit your country -even an epsilon of it- to the killers of -even one of- your compatriot?
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Posted: 2006-05-13 01:47:41
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Certainly shape of the map in what years a go is not important. I mentioned to it just for saying that Israel is not more deep-rooted to give up effort.
That depend supon your view of Israel. There have been Jews living in that area for thousands of years so some might say that a Jewish state there is very deep rooted.
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if other countries that were not existed years a go and now listed, has massacred a lands people and maked a country, they also should answer to the reminders of that people. but this several countries are not important to me because they have killed people years ago & those days I weren't, then I think I have no real duty about it. but now I live in a time that see the genocide on Palestian people, then its every of us duty to defend them against Israel.
First of all there is no 'genocide' of the Palestinian people. Genoicide is a very emotive word and it is being used inaccurately here. The Israelis have certainly commited atrocities with regards to the Palestinians, but there is not, and has not since the formation of modern Israel, been a campaign of genocide against the Palestinians by the Israelis. Genocide involves the wholesale slaughter of people on a vast scale. Certainly many people have died, but the conflicts and suffering we have seen are not genocide.
I asked why Israel should exist or what is the basis for saying Israel should exist? you said what is the basis for saying that Israel shouldn't exist?
You still haven't said why Israel shouldn't exist. Israel has as much right to exist as does a Palestinian state. All peoples have a right to live in peace and happiness, whether they be Israeli or Palestinian.
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any way, I think there is no use for us to have a racist country in the world, a country that there is no warranty to dont want to expand his occupation. to a country that dont hew to any national law...
What constitutes a 'racist country'? Many countries have practicied discrimination against certain peoples throughout history.
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despite all of this, if some people wish to make a country; OK, they can make it. but please do not kill the people & occupy other countries. get the land from your friends or build artificial islands or in some negotiations get the land... but occupying other countries and then say :let's have a negotiation to give you half of your land, is some thing like joke. if you don't accept this offer,it proves that you are terorist...ultrajoke
You're rather over simplifying the matter. Israel is going to exist whether its opponents like it or not. Now people can either recognise that fact and deal with Israel and actually try to get some sort of deal that is fair to both sides or they can continue to call for its destruction and simply reinforce the views of Israeli hardliners. If you take away the threat to Israel then the hardliners have little left to work with meaning that the more moderate Israeli politicians can have a greater voice. What is it people think will happen by calling for Israel's destruction? Do they think it will actually happen?
Militarily Israel is not going to be destroyed by any of her enemies with anything short of an atatck with WMD, which would most likely also severely harm the Palestinians and render both Israel and Palestine uninhabitable. Of course there would also eb the distinct prospect of Israel responding in kind and destroying whomever launched the attack.
Diplomatically Israel is not going to cease to exist. The majority of the world's antions recognise Israel and that Israel has a right to exist. There is no consensus in the international community at large for not recognising Israel and indeed.
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do you like to submit your country -even an epsilon of it- to the killers of -even one of- your compatriot?
I'd fight and die to protect my country, but I would also know when fighting was pointless. What is the point in constant bloodshed save to spread death and suffering? Violence should only be used when absolutely necessary. Even when violence does have to be used at some point it has to end and a good victory is as much in recognising that as it is in defeating one's opponent.
What will the continued killing of Palestinians by Israelis achieve except to embitter Palestinians against them? What will the continued killing of Israelis by Palestinians achieve except to breed hostility amongst Israelis for Palestinians? Taking sides in this issue only serves to further suffering, people should wake up and realise that neither side has any more claim to morality than the other, but both sides are human beings deserving of peace.
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Posted: 2006-05-13 03:48:02
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@scotsboyuk
both first & second paragraph of your post discusses about some qualitative matters. you say it's deep rooted, but I say it's not. you say it's not genocide but I say it is. yes, this matters depends upon our view. and here I don't want to discuss about the words we use. I would prefer to discuss about some accurate matters. but if you think this are some important & disscusable matters, we can discuss about them.
as you know, when a new thing occur, people ask why it should happen? why it should exist? some inertia,... they do not ask why it should not exist, excepet those who are adherent of that new thing. yes, there is another difference in our view.
in the response of your question"why Israel should not exist?", I said Israel should not exist in Palestanian's land simply because its not their land. simply because racist countries are dangerous for human being. in your reasoning you mention other people mistakes, you say because there were other countries that weren't exist and now listed, because there are some racist countries, ... all of this are bad, & won't lead me to accept this bad things only because other use to accept it. bad is bad, even all the people of the world use to accept it.
about the reminder part of your post, you have depict the nowadays diplomatic world, that many countries has accepted it, that people has accepted it... OK; but I think they are wrong, if look to the matter with justic. as I mentioned the others view can not be a good reason for me, I just want from those to explain their reasons for accepting Israel, may be I accept it too, if their reasons be legal.
you said about the war & its detriments. finally a solidarity! I dont believe to any war, I believe to awaking people to support palestinians to own their country. but if they wanted to get my land I won't be surrendered, simply because war is bad.
Its your choice to despair from defending your country or not. but I prefer dieng than living with abjection.
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Posted: 2006-05-13 09:35:57
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On 2006-05-13 09:35:57, George_f wrote:
you say it's deep rooted, but I say it's not.
You are choosing to look at the modern state of Israel and apparrently ignore the millineia of Jewish existence in that region. Whether you like it or not Jewish peoples have lived in that area of the world for far longer than most modern states have been in existence. That does give modern Israel a connection to the past, what that connection is exactly may very well be debated, but certainly it is there.
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you say it's not genocide but I say it is. yes, this matters depends upon our view. and here I don't want to discuss about the words we use. I would prefer to discuss about some accurate matters. but if you think this are some important & disscusable matters, we can discuss about them.
You can't just use any word you feel like using to describe something. I wouldn't call an apple a table for example. Genocide is defined as:
"The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group."
"noun the deliberate killing of a very large number of people from a particular ethnic group or nation"
Genocide is an act of systematic killing, it is organised and conducted in a planned fashion with its ultimate aim being to kill all or as many of the targeted people as possible. Whilst an important part of the definition is the scale, the systematic and organised part is equally important.
At the risk of sounding flippant, if the Israelis are committing genocide on the Palestinian people then they aren't doing a very good job of it because they have had the better part of forty years to be in control of Palestine. The truth of the matter is that there is no genocide. Many Palestinians have been killed, but not in an systematic campaign designed to exterminate them as a people.
The killing in Rwanda was genocide; the Holocaust was genocide; the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians may be awful and many may be suffering, but neither side is committing genocide.
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as you know, when a new thing occur, people ask why it should happen? why it should exist? some inertia,... they do not ask why it should not exist, excepet those who are adherent of that new thing. yes, there is another difference in our view.
Not that I particularly agree with your logic here, but let's use it for a moment. If a Palestinian state was set up it would be a new state, should we question its right to exist? Jordan is a relatively new state created by the British, should we question its right to exist? Iraq was another state created by the British, should we question its right to exist? Saudi Arabia as a state didn't exist before the 20th century, should its existence be questioned? Of course not, we should respect that each of those countries has a right to exist in keeping with the wishes of their peoples.
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in the response of your question"why Israel should not exist?", I said Israel should not exist in Palestanian's land simply because its not their land.
Why is it not their land? If we look at it in very simple terms the Jewish people were there first. The area wasn't even called Palestine until Roman times. Why shouldn't there be a Jewish state in a place where Jews have lived for so long?
The Palestinian people now also live in that region and have done so for a long time so I equally think they should be allowed to have a homeland too. I am not sure which, if any, religion you profess faith in, but the Abrahamic God of the Jews and Muslims is, as I understand it, a God of infinite love. Can't these two, supposedly religious peoples, follow their faiths and demonstrate love for each other and co-exist beside one another?
Having visited both Israel and Palestine I can tell you that it is without doubt one of the most beautiful parts of this planet. The morons who fight over it are completely undeserving of such a beautiful place; both Israelis and Palestinians spoil it with their stupidity and greed and selfishness and hatred.
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simply because racist countries are dangerous for human being.
I asked what you considered a 'racist country' to be? What makes a country racist?
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in your reasoning you mention other people mistakes, you say because there were other countries that weren't exist and now listed, because there are some racist countries, ... all of this are bad, & won't lead me to accept this bad things only because other use to accept it. bad is bad, even all the people of the world use to accept it.
Good and evil both exist in this world, one cannot exist without the other. People are fallible, we can and do make mistakes. One should of course learn from one's mistakes, but one should not dwell on them. Are we to hold every single mistake and act of wrong against a country forever? Are we to demonise Germany's youth for the actions of their grandfathers? Should I, as a Scot, hate English people for actions committed almost 700 years before I was born?
What little I know of Islam and Judaism tells me that the God of those religions does not teach hate or recrimination.
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about the reminder part of your post, you have depict the nowadays diplomatic world, that many countries has accepted it, that people has accepted it... OK; but I think they are wrong, if look to the matter with justic. as I mentioned the others view can not be a good reason for me, I just want from those to explain their reasons for accepting Israel, may be I accept it too, if their reasons be legal.
The United Nations General Assembly proposed two seperate states in the region back in the 1940s. The plan was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs in Palestine. The plan came from the United Nations, hence the case for recognising Israel was lent more weight.
Israel has been recognised as a soveriegn nation by the majority of the world. You are perfectly entitled to think that such countries are wrong to do so, but that will not change the situation on the ground. We either accept what happens and deal with it or we rail against it and get nowhere.
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you said about the war & its detriments. finally a solidarity! I dont believe to any war, I believe to awaking people to support palestinians to own their country. but if they wanted to get my land I won't be surrendered, simply because war is bad.
Its your choice to despair from defending your country or not. but I prefer dieng than living with abjection.
I did actually say I would fight and die for my country if I had to, but on the whole I am against violence unless it is absolutely necessary.
Let's take a hypothetical situation for a moment; what would happen if the Palestinians wrested control of the region from Israel? It is quite probably that we would then see Israeli resistance groups springing up to end the 'occupation of their homeland'. It would be the same situation as we have now except the sides would be switched.
It is the same situation in Northern Ireland. If the UK suddenly just handed Northern Ireland back to Eire you would probably have Loyalist terror groups fighting to restore Northern ireland to the UK.
Such situations don't have quick fixes, they require effort and patience. Whether there is one state in the region or two those people have to learn to live beside one another without killing each other.
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-05-13 16:20 ]
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Posted: 2006-05-13 17:14:00
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You are choosing to look at the modern state of Israel and apparrently ignore the millineia of Jewish existence in that region. Whether you like it or not Jewish peoples have lived in that area of the world for far longer than most modern states have been in existence. That does give modern Israel a connection to the past, what that connection is exactly may very well be debated, but certainly it is there.
i only read your first paragrapgh not the rest...
if you look at the past 1400 years...there have been very very few jews living there...before that, yes maybe, as this is where god revealed some of the revelations to the other prophets peace be upon them...
as a muslim, we respect jews and christians, why, because they are the people of the book, why? because god gave them revelations before...
as a muslim, you believe that at the time, jews were muslim, because they submitted there will to god, christians were muslim...
but those prophets were sent as messengers for those times and those people, whereas mohammed SAW was sent for humanity the angels etc etc
but obviously what we call jews and christians today, didnt pay heed to the laer revelations...which is sad...as we all techinically worship the same god...
many people do not understan this
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Posted: 2006-05-13 21:59:51
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On 2006-05-13 21:59:51, dealer3 wrote:
i only read your first paragrapgh not the rest...
That's ok, I think that happens a lot.
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if you look at the past 1400 years...there have been very very few jews living there...before that, yes maybe, as this is where god revealed some of the revelations to the other prophets peace be upon them...
The reason I mentioned that Jews had been living there for such a long time is to show that there is a historical link to a Jewish homeland. There is also a historical link tying the Palestinians to the area. But historical links are one thing, the present day situation is another.
Israel is going to exist whether some people like it or not. Instead of causing more suffering in trying to defeat or destroy Israel, it would be better to work towards a compromise that enables both Israelis and Palestinians to each have their own homeland and live in peace.
What has violence achieved for either side? Have all those suicide bombings given the Palestinians their own state yet? Have all the missiles launched given Israel peace yet? Violence begets violence and at some point that cycle has to be broken. Ghandi gained independence for India through non-violence, he discouraged his followers from resisting or fighting and eventually he won.
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as a muslim, we respect jews and christians, why, because they are the people of the book, why? because god gave them revelations before...
as a muslim, you believe that at the time, jews were muslim, because they submitted there will to god, christians were muslim...
but those prophets were sent as messengers for those times and those people, whereas mohammed SAW was sent for humanity the angels etc etc
but obviously what we call jews and christians today, didnt pay heed to the laer revelations...which is sad...as we all techinically worship the same god...
many people do not understan this
I am aware that it is the same God they all worhsip, however, I don't see a single one of those who spread such suffering and misery as being either a follower of that God or as being a good Muslim, Jew or Christian. Correct me if I am wrong since I am not a member of any of those religions, but what I know of the God of those religions does not include inflicting suffering upon one's fellow man or harming innocents or dealing in revenge.
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Posted: 2006-05-14 15:42:40
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sorry for the delay. Regardless of having exams, I will try to take a part in this discussion.
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You are choosing to look at the modern state of Israel and apparrently ignore the millineia of Jewish existence in that region. Whether you like it or not Jewish peoples have lived in that area of the world for far longer than most modern states have been in existence. That does give modern Israel a connection to the past, what that connection is exactly may very well be debated, but certainly it is there.
yes, Jewish were there and they have right to live there, but my claim is toward those Jewish who had migrated from their countries, to make Israel. an Indian Jewish is Indian, not Israeli. then this Israel, with his migratory people is not deep-rooted.
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You can't just use any word you feel like using to describe something. I wouldn't call an apple a table for example. Genocide is defined as:
"The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group."
"noun the deliberate killing of a very large number of people from a particular ethnic group or nation"
Genocide is an act of systematic killing, it is organised and conducted in a planned fashion with its ultimate aim being to kill all or as many of the targeted people as possible. Whilst an important part of the definition is the scale, the systematic and organised part is equally important.
At the risk of sounding flippant, if the Israelis are committing genocide on the Palestinian people then they aren't doing a very good job of it because they have had the better part of forty years to be in control of Palestine. The truth of the matter is that there is no genocide. Many Palestinians have been killed, but not in an systematic campaign designed to exterminate them as a people.
firstly thank for writing accurate definition of the word genocide, according to this definition, and it's important parts: systematic and organised: what word you choose to define Ghana, Sabra, Shatila, Mansori,.. events. you can use table, icecream, or even peace to describe this events. but this doesn't change any thing.
adding to that mentioned genocides, killing barehanded children is just an action of this regim to exterminate a nation.
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the Holocaust was genocide
It has not been proved yet!
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Not that I particularly agree with your logic here, but let's use it for a moment. If a Palestinian state was set up it would be a new state, should we question its right to exist? Jordan is a relatively new state created by the British, should we question its right to exist? Iraq was another state created by the British, should we question its right to exist? Saudi Arabia as a state didn't exist before the 20th century, should its existence be questioned? Of course not, we should respect that each of those countries has a right to exist in keeping with the wishes of their peoples.
I think questioning about the events that occure around us is a good thing.
yes, I question about Jordan, about Saudi Arabia & others. but in less than a minute I get the answer: they have right to exist, no doubt.
you can not compare creating this countries by creating Israel. there is a systematic migration, open your eyes!
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Why is it not their land? If we look at it in very simple terms the Jewish people were there first. The area wasn't even called Palestine until Roman times. Why shouldn't there be a Jewish state in a place where Jews have lived for so long?
The Palestinian people now also live in that region and have done so for a long time so I equally think they should be allowed to have a homeland too. I am not sure which, if any, religion you profess faith in, but the Abrahamic God of the Jews and Muslims is, as I understand it, a God of infinite love. Can't these two, supposedly religious peoples, follow their faiths and demonstrate love for each other and co-exist beside one another?
Tired of repeating this sentences, but saying it again:
Regarding to that Jewish from other countries: It is not their land. certainly God wants them -without considering whats their religion- all Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Buddhist to follow their faiths and demonstrate love for their countryman and co-exist beside one another.
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Having visited both Israel and Palestine I can tell you that it is without doubt one of the most beautiful parts of this planet. The morons who fight over it are completely undeserving of such a beautiful place; both Israelis and Palestinians spoil it with their stupidity and greed and selfishness and hatred.
I think value of the human, justic, patriotism is more than tree, building and other materials. you look at Palestine as a tourist. but I look at it as a part of the world that in it some human values is grinding.
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I asked what you considered a 'racist country' to be? What makes a country racist?
"A racist is someone that hates a type of people because of their race. Sometimes they will try to kill the group of people". wikipedia
refering to this definition, I would like to explain my opinion again:
Israel is a racist country because hates Muslims-if you say that they love Muslims, or at minimum, doesnot care about them, how you can explain killing barehanded childeren? because is making a country regarding to their religion, may be race. If you think the world racist is not suitable, I can use religionist, even if you want philanthropist. but I can not forget their actions.
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Good and evil both exist in this world, one cannot exist without the other. People are fallible, we can and do make mistakes. One should of course learn from one's mistakes, but one should not dwell on them. Are we to hold every single mistake and act of wrong against a country forever? Are we to demonise Germany's youth for the actions of their grandfathers? Should I, as a Scot, hate English people for actions committed almost 700 years before I was born?
What little I know of Islam and Judaism tells me that the God of those religions does not teach hate or recrimination.
I don't see a brief connection between things that I said & those you said in my reply...anyway...of course I don't say anything to Germany's youth for the actions of their grandfathers, or other people for the actions of their fathers. I complain to the Israel soldiers that live in nowadays world.
I reitrate my opinion: If there were or they are evil mans that did or doing evil works, It can not authorize others to do so. evil is evil, even if all of the people of the world now or past used to do it.
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The United Nations General Assembly proposed two seperate states in the region back in the 1940s. The plan was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs in Palestine. The plan came from the United Nations, hence the case for recognising Israel was lent more weight.
Israel has been recognised as a soveriegn nation by the majority of the world. You are perfectly entitled to think that such countries are wrong to do so,
what I can see in your reasoning is some kind of defer to the majority of the world or if I want to say better, defer to the bullies.
others opinion about an event does not cause me to have same opinion about that event. I live with my opinion & want others to explain their reasoning in logical way about that opinion, may be I accept their opinion.
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… that will not change the situation on the ground. We either accept what happens and deal with it or we rail against it and get nowhere.
absolutely disagree! I think it's our duty to rail toward justic and not accepting things just because absolute majority say. we should live with our mind not others, if it would be then what is the difference between a man & a puppet?
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Let's take a hypothetical situation for a moment; what would happen if the Palestinians wrested control of the region from Israel? It is quite probably that we would then see Israeli resistance groups springing up to end the 'occupation of their homeland'. It would be the same situation as we have now except the sides would be switched.
It is the same situation in Northern Ireland. If the UK suddenly just handed Northern Ireland back to Eire you would probably have Loyalist terror groups fighting to restore Northern ireland to the UK.
I think if the Jewish that palestine is their land start claiming, it's their right & I would support them to get their land. I promise.
let's have a solution for this problem:
the migrant Jewishes returned to their countries, execute a plebiscite- take part all the people of the land, regardless of their religion, Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Buddhist, pagan,..- like in Lebanon. then live with eachother.
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Such situations don't have quick fixes, they require effort and patience. Whether there is one state in the region or two those people have to learn to live beside one another without killing each other.
absolutely agreed.
but we should be conscious to dont forget justic in the way of getting peace. I believe to "firm peace" & for getting this, I think we should care about justic. if we quickly say to twos that you should accept peace & no sides have the right to claim, it would not lead to have peace in general. In a world that people just care about peace, not justice, it would not be any guarantee that in another corner of the world another folk, race, group claim for a newland. because they can predict the opinion of the general public: they want peace then they will accept, if we just want half of this land.
Palestine problem can be solved more peacefully than anyone think. just simple plebiscite regardless of their religion and for those who wants to make a country regarding to their religion, race or etc, make an artificial island or something like this.
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Posted: 2006-05-14 16:40:16
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The Holocaust was genocide
It has not been proved yet!
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Interesting articles on Holocaust Denials:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examination_of_Holocaust_denial
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I would like to explain my opinion again:
Israel is a racist country because hates Muslims-if you say that they love Muslims, or at minimum, doesnot care about them, how you can explain killing barehanded childeren?
Do you believe all jews hate Muslms?
Do you beleve all Muslim hate Jews?
Has no Israeli/Jew kid ever been killed in a suicide bomb attack?
As far as I see, both sides have killed children.
I don't accept the logic of "One side has kiled more children than the other" rhetoric.
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Posted: 2006-05-14 17:31:58
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the Holocaust was genocide
It has not been proved yet!
how dare you to say that ?
You really have a problem. So you recognize the so called "genocide" by Israel but not the genocide from 40-45 ?!
Congrats, you offended millions of deaths. "God" will be pleased with your statement ...
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Posted: 2006-05-14 18:20:00
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