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@Phildon, guess that's natural variation. For R/C packs, the best performing packs are made of matched cells, ie same charge/discharge characteristics. I doubt if my SE batt has gone thru this process, and sadly the batt takes on the char of the weakest cell.
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Posted: 2005-08-23 21:15:00
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Aivar:
I charge it every night, it simply tops the battery up, so it's not a full recharge cycle, so it's not that it runs low every day. Infact, my K700 battery got better over it's lifecycle (it's still going strong). When I say "everynight", of course there were exceptions to that, I just meant as a rule I charge it everynight. Maybe 4 or 5 times a month I'd forget to charge one night, or couldn't due to inconvenience. What I found was that early in the ownership of that battery, the phone would run dead after two days. Now it runs dead over three days (K700 doesn't have the best life anyway). I definitely get more life out of it. And I have run the battery to the point where it turned off only once in it's entire life.
you say "A new battery needs to be run "completely" empty and then to be given a long charging period (as we know, this cycle should be repeated several times in the beginning). " But this is not the case with lithium batteries. All lithium battery literature I have ever read says to start using the battery straight away.
From the following website:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm"
"Does not need prolonged priming when new. One regular charge is all that's needed"
and
"Low Maintenance - no periodic discharge is needed; there is no memory "
and
"Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns."
This is from the battery experts, which you and I are not
You say: "For example, my battery lasted after the first five charges quite badly and then achieved its great maximum." That is because you deep cycled it rather than partially charging it. Deep cycle recharging heats the battery more, heat is a no no with lithium batts. Think about it
Quote from you: "I hope you agree that battery does not live forever. But what "makes" the battery old? Why one battery lasts 3-4 years in good condition and the other one has power only for a year? The reason is not time but the frequency of charging. It is a wellknown truth that... Don't you really agree with that? " No, I don't
I agree it won't last forever
But who said my battery only lasted a year? It's still going strong. And you say it is a well known truth....but it's not a truth for lithium batteries, only batteries with memory effect. What I'm trying to say, is that your "truths" don't apply to lithium battery technology.
Read up on lithium batteries on the above web link, I think you'll see what I'm trying to say.
PS I have a lot of personal experience with batteries also. My new K750 I got out of the box, put my sim card in, then used it for a whole day, taking photos etc without needing to charge it. The battery was half discharged by the end of the day. Non-lithium batteries would have been dead on purchase (unless the store precharged batteries). I put it on charge that night, and have done so 9 times out of ten since then. I have never fully discharged it. When I didn't charge it one night, the next day I got a full days use out of it (went on a photo taking bike ride) and it had more than half a charge at the end of the day. You simply could not do that with batteries before lithium batts came along.
I did a similar thing to my K700 when it was new, and never had any problems and it's battery is still as good as new.
You say: "I don't write it on the basis of my own or my friends' experience only. You might read the opinions in Esato where many complain that they charge their battey almost every day and it doesn't last long. "
I think most of those threads are about the K700. The K700 battery is underpowered for the phone, but that's got nothing to do with it being a lithium battery. Another factor with the K700 is that early firmware for the K700 had a faulty battery gauge, so it could sit for a day or more on very low meter without dying. So peeps thought it needed charging everynight when infact they could get away with another day. The K700 is also one of the first non-smartphones from SE that had serious power use (vga camera, large bright screen, large memory) and they under-estimated it's battery power needs. I'm pleased to say that has been addressed with the K750
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Posted: 2005-08-24 03:12:25
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Hi again,
It's pretty interesting discussion going in here. As others can see, we stay in different positions. And I guess, it will be in that way. We both claim that everyday practice shows that my/your way is the right one. It's a free world and we can freely share our opinions
I'm sure that my battery lasts so well because I care about it in the right way: I nearly always start to charge my battery when the battery is so empty that the phone switches off itself. So i don't have to charge it often and therefore it has lived so long and keeps on going.
For example, a few times I have had to charge my battery when it was not "completly" empty. And guess what? After that the battery lasted not so long as usually.
You did not answer my last question. What makes a battery old? What do you think?
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Posted: 2005-08-24 10:23:22
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Quote:
On 2005-08-24 10:23:22, Aivar wrote:
Hi again,
It's pretty interesting discussion going in here. As others can see, we stay in different positions. And I guess, it will be in that way. We both claim that everyday practice shows that my/your way is the right one. It's a free world and we can freely share our opinions
I'm sure that my battery lasts so well because I care about it in the right way: I nearly always start to charge my battery when the battery is so empty that the phone switches off itself. So i don't have to charge it often and therefore it has lived so long and keeps on going.
For example, a few times I have had to charge my battery when it was not "completly" empty. And guess what? After that the battery lasted not so long as usually.
You did not answer my last question. What makes a battery old? What do you think?
I tend to believe what the experts say about Lithium batteries, and what you are saying is your personal experience, goes against not only what I have read, but also what my own experience shows me, so I'm not quite sure what to think about which of us is right. For example, do you really believe lithium batteries have a memory effect, when battery experts, who have thousands of hours of experience with batteries, will say they don't? This is what I'm struggling to comprehend about your argument. You are going completely against the established wisdom about Lithium batteries.
You may get more charge out of the battery by discharging fully due to other factors. How big is the difference? If it's only 10% or so then I wouldn't call it "memory effect", and you may find that if you don't fully discharge before charging that this 10% will never get any worse (whereas non-lithium batteries it will get worse and worse until the batt is useless). I myself can live with 10% less charge, and find it too inconvenient to have a the batt run out during the day just to make sure it fully discharges. So I'm happy to recharge every night.
As far as life of the batt goes, well once batteries had to be replaced every year, know I can't even think of anyone I know who has had to replace their battery in the last three years, regardless of how the battery is charged. So I think Lithium batts are fully capable of lasting for three years on daily recharging. This is not true of memory effect batteries.
When analysing all this keep in mind that newer phones have massive power draw even in standby compared to the T68 or T68i. So be careful that you are not comparing your phone to newer phones when assessing how long the battery lasts. My T28, which had a lithium battery, and which I charged most nights but also often let discharge to halfway, would last even with heavy use for 5 days or more, that length of operation is just not possible on todays phones.
"I'm sure that my battery lasts so well because I care about it in the right way" - but my batteries last so well too, and I don't use what you call the "right way", which incidently is not what the experts recommend for Lithium batts. Your advice is what the experts would say about Ni-Cad, and to a less extent NiMH, batts.
What makes a battery old? A battery is old when it can no longer be charged.
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2005-08-24 16:38 ]
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Posted: 2005-08-24 17:35:45
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Max_wedge,
If you are satisfied with your charging method, I don't want you to change your mind. As you can't change mine. I don't care about experts if several years in real life have confirmed me that my method is (also) right.
But I would like to quote our discussion before.
I wrote: "A new battery needs to be run "completely" empty and then to be given a long charging period (as we know, this cycle should be repeated several times in the beginning). For example, my battery
lasted after the first five charges quite badly and then achieved its great maximum."
You answered: "That is because you deep cycled it rather than partially charging it. Deep cycle recharging heats the battery more, heat is a no no with lithium batts. Think about it."
You also quote different experts, what they have said. But have you read phone's manual?
The manual of my T68i says clearly: during first cycles the capacity of battery does not achive its maximum.
This is also said by experts. But you don't agree with that. Why do you prefer only those experts whose opinion you consider to be right?
By the way, you still did not answer my question: what makes a battery old in your opinion? You only said: "A battery is old when it can no longer be charged."
But what causes it?
My assertion is: the frequent charging.
As I previously quoted first post (by orang3) in this thread:
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You should also understand that due to the chemical processes involved, batteries deteriorate over time. After a certain number of cycles, the battery's maximum charge capacity drops to below 80 percent of its original capacity.
Battery type / Number of charging cycles
Nickel cadmium (NiCd) 1,500
Nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) 300-500
Lithium-ion (Li-ion) 500-1,000
Lithium-polymer (Li-Po) 300-500"
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Posted: 2005-08-25 12:46:57
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Thanx alot! I'll save this guide for my new battery i've been meaning to get
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Posted: 2005-08-25 14:03:33
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Quote:
On 2005-08-25 12:46:57, Aivar wrote:
As I previously quoted first post (by orang3) in this thread:
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You should also understand that due to the chemical processes involved, batteries deteriorate over time. After a certain number of cycles, the battery's maximum charge capacity drops to below 80 percent of its original capacity.
Battery type / Number of charging cycles
Nickel cadmium (NiCd) 1,500
Nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) 300-500
Lithium-ion (Li-ion) 500-1,000
Lithium-polymer (Li-Po) 300-500"
---
Lithium batteries die eventually but not due to memory affect and not due to the way they are charged. Regardless of the charging/discharging practice the battery will eventually die as the chemistry of the cells breaks down. As you can see above the Lithium Ion batteries have the same lifetime of a NiCD battery. The only thing that is different is how you charge the battery to ensure it last as long as it can. With Lithium batteries you can charge it whenever you want (top up or full recharge) whereas NiCD batteries will suffer memory effect if you don't discharge prior to charging, hence shortening their lifetime.
I just read every manual for Lithium battery phones I own and they say nothing whatsoever about needing to deep cycle the battery to avoid memory affect. You are correct they do say "during first cycles the capacity of battery does not achive its maximum" however this just means you have to give it a couple of good charges before the battery attains peak efficiency. This cleans oxidisation off the cells. (sorry, the heating i was referring to i was thinking of deep cycling not the inital charge cycles which is what you were talking about, my bad) It doesn't say that you must discharge the battery before doing so, however if you do the battery will attain peak efficiency quicker. Another thing that is absent from all of the manuals, is any kind of statement to the effect that the battery must be periodically discharged and then fully recharged to maintain the battery. That advice is COMPLETELY absent, whereas it is present in NiCD and NiMH battery manuals.
Wouldn't you think that the "experts" who wrote the manual would advise about deep cycling if it were necessary?
The advice that is present, is to keep the battery at room temperature, since Lithium batteries cannot handle overheating (early lithium batt chargers sometimes weren't very good at preventing overheating, now they do it very well)
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2005-08-25 13:27 ]
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Posted: 2005-08-25 14:19:27
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Max_wedge,
I have to admit that your comments have been reasoned very carefuly
(though everyday life has proved the other way too).
I invite you to the last duel of our battery-conversation
You wrote: "Lithium batteries die eventually but not due to memory
affect and not due to the way they are charged. Regardless of the
charging/discharging practice the battery will eventually die as the
chemistry of the cells breaks down."
Orang3 wrote: "Due to the chemical processes involved, batteries
deteriorate over time. After a certain number of cycles, the battery's
maximum charge capacity drops to below 80 percent of its original capacity.
Battery type / Number of charging cycles
Nickel cadmium (NiCd) 1,500
Nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) 300-500
Lithium-ion (Li-ion) 500-1,000
Lithium-polymer (Li-Po) 300-500"
---
So, you still claim that frequent charging does not affect battery life?
Consequently, the info given by Orang3 must be completly wrong by your opinion?
As I have said, I don't know are those numbers right or no. But I'm sure that frequent charging forces every kind battery to die sooner. Simpel daily life has proved it.
Otherwise, why the chemistry of the cells of a battery breaks down? Simply just like that with no certain reason?
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Posted: 2005-08-25 17:30:54
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Aivar, yes, you have certainly made me double check my facts, and I also have learnt a lot about Lithium batteries in researching my answers. Thank you for that!
As to Orang3's comments, I tottally agree with him (or her):
"Due to the chemical processes involved, batteries
deteriorate over time. After a certain number of cycles, the battery's
maximum charge capacity drops to below 80 percent of its original capacity. "
Keep in mind that Lithium battery chargers only "top up" the charge, they don't trickle charge the battery if it is left on the charger. So it is not "charging" the whole time that it is on the charger. The charge cycles mentioned above could be a full charge every 8 days, or many small top up recharges every day (for batteries that don't have memory affect).
Nothing is said in the above statement about memory affect. Just because a battery chemistry breaks down over time, does not mean that it suffers memory affect. Memory affect is a process that shortens a battery's life unnaturally. That is to say, the battery capcity reaches zero BEFORE the chemistry has broken down. This is due to crystals forming on the plates that create such a high impedance that the battery cannot be charged. These crystals are removed by deep cycling. These are cadmium crystals, and only occur in NiCD batteries, so memory affect, and the need for deep cycling only applies to NiCD batteries. NiMH batteries don't suffer memory affect, but have a much shorter lifecycle than the Li-ION batteries which are used in todays cellphones, hence the perception that NiMH batts do suffer memory affect. In reality they have just reached the end of their lifecycle.
In Lithium batteries, such crystal formation doesn't occur. The absence of memory affect means the battery can run out it's full lifecycle regardless of maintenence (deep cycling). In memory affect batteries, unless rigid charging regimens are adhered to, the battery will be useless before the end of it's lifecycle.
In fact, using special chargers, some memory affect batteries (NiCD) that have prematurely reached the point where they will accept no further charge, can be brought back into full charge and continue to live out their lifecycle.
However, as to why batteries die, the abridged answer? Inside the battery, certain chemicals are mixed with metals to provide the catalysing process that allows current flow. Over time these chemicals and metals are broken down as the chemical processes occur. This process is inherent in ALL batteries. This process can not be prevented even by deep cycling. Your T68 battery will one day die my friend, because it's very operation relies on chemicals within changing from one form to another. Once all the chemicals and metals have changed and none of the original chimstry exists, the battery is then unable to be charged.
So surely you can see from that, I am not disagreeing with Orang3. As the chart states, all the types of batteries have a limited lifecycle.
Sources and Notes:
NiCD battery memory affect:
http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_NiCd_Battery.html#NICDBATTERY_014
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-33.htm
There is a foam based NiCD battery type that doesn't suffer memory affect, used by Motorola prior to advent of cheap Lithium batteries.
NiMH batteries do have a small propensity to memory affect, but it is nowhere near as severe as NiCD batteries.
http://www.dvanhorn.org/NIMH/Index.php
Also, Lithium batteries are very demanding in how they are charged, but only to do with heat or overcharging, and this is taken care of by the charger itself. Heat actually causes the the chemistry to break down very quickly, hence causing the battery to reach the end of it's lifecycle much shorter than the it's theoretical lifecycle. Hence a faulty charger could cause a Lithium batt to die in a very short time, making it appear that it has suffered memory affect.
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm (note this link states that Li-ion batts have a 300-500 charge lifecycle, however lithium batteries have advanced a lot in the last year, hence Orang3's claim of 500-1000. However the science in this article is solid and explains very well the charging requirements of lithium batteries)
Lithium batteries slowly degrade even when not in use, so a Li-ion battery lifecycle is measured FROM IT'S DATE OF MANUFACTURE, so it must be used as soon after manufacture as possible or you will not get use of it for the full lifecycle. This means you could theoretically buy a battery that had sat on the shelf for two years, and only get a year of use! Lithium battery chemistry is a ticking clock, and nothing, not even deep cycling, will slow the rate at which the cell chemistry breaks down.
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2005-08-26 03:02 ]
[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2005-08-26 03:17 ]
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Posted: 2005-08-26 03:57:48
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Due to the fact that lithium battery chargers stop charging the battery once it is full (as opposed to trickle chargers which keep charging), the length of charging time the battery is exposed to doesn't change just because the batt is connected to a charger all night. In effect, the battery only needs to be charged for a couple of hours in the morning (or less if it is not flat), and it would have as much charge as if you left it on charge all night. How ever it is just easier to chuck it on the charger at night before going to bed, than remembering to do so first thing you wake up in the morning.
Look at it this way:
Let's assume the battery can be fully charged from empty in 2 hours (about standard for lithium batts). We'll also assume we both have the same phone with similar patern of use.
Let's also assume that everynight I put my phone on charge the battery has 75% charge (which is the case unless I really hammer the phone that day). This means it will charge for about 30 minutes, then it will be fully charged and the charger will stop charging. Therefore over 4 days the phone will complete one charge cycle.
Let's assume you run your battery "dry" over 4 days use (the T68 would go longer, but I'm trying to compare apples to apples
), then put it on the charger. It will charge for 2 hours, then it will be fully charged and the charger will stop charging.
Therefore both of use will have charged our battery for one full charge cycle (2 hours). Hence the chart Orang3 provided is equally valid for both our charging methods, and will result in an identical contribution to the shortening of the batteries over-all lifecycle.
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Posted: 2005-08-26 04:39:44
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