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one thing I should point out is that it's not anyone's place to say what an idividual should and should not be doing, because what's normal to you isn't normal to them. It's the typical example of how western ideology has simply pushed those to the edge of paranoia.
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Posted: 2006-02-04 11:56:18
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On 2006-02-04 11:56:18, amnesia wrote:
one thing I should point out is that it's not anyone's place to say what an idividual should and should not be doing, because what's normal to you isn't normal to them. It's the typical example of how western ideology has simply pushed those to the edge of paranoia.
isnt this a contradiction if its not anyones place to say what someone should or shouldnt do why are people protesting against the cartoons. you could also reverse the western ideology by saying eastern ideology has made them paranoid.
i like brix s comment muslims should take to the streets to protest against the small minority who are making a mockery of there religion by kidnapping and beheading people. this is far more damaging to the perception of islam than any cartoon will ever be
[ This Message was edited by: slattery69 on 2006-02-04 14:43 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-04 15:30:20
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@gelfen
Well said!
The cartoons may very well have been offensive to Muslims, but the reaction to them has been completely rediculous. Other religions have been satarised in the media and we do not see embassies being attacked or calls for people to be beheaded. The Jerry Springer opera offended some Christians in the UK, but they didn't attack anyone.
No one religion should be treated any differently to another and with freedom of speech that means that people can and probably will satarise religion and religious figures; of course one should exercise that freedom responsibly and not seek to deliberately attack another's religious beliefs. Religion should not be off limits to valid debate and discussion; if someone disagrees with something someone else has said they have a right to disagee and protest, but that does not involve incitement to violence or violence itself.
The Danish newspaper didn't publish the cartoons as part of a dedicated policy to attack or denigrate Islam; it was a standard satirical publication by the looks of things. The reaction of calling for violence and actually perpetuating violence has done Islam far more damage than those cartoons ever could. The reaction we have seen simply reinforces the stereotypical image of Muslims as being violent and intolerant. It does nothing to educate people as to Islam's peaceful nature or to the work done by Islamic charities or of the tradition of tolerance towards other religions as can be seen in historical Islamic states. Thankfully some Muslims are speaking out against the extreme reaction we have seen and are showing that Islam is not a religion of extremism and hate mongering.
All this situation does is play into the hands of extremists on both sides and helps to polarise the world into Islamic and non-Islamic camps. Those advocating violence because they feel Islam has been attacked would be far better off protesting against those who kidnap and behead people or who blow themselves up to kill innocent men, women and children. Those are the people who are attacking Islam.
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-05 04:28 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-05 05:05:30
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Another
BBC article with some analysis of the situation makes quite interesting reading, saying basically this row highlights the difference between the liberal, secular Western societies and the more religious Middle Eastern societies.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 07:20:45
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Giving so much attention to a mere cartoon is stupid.
I guess these people who are protesting should take a closer look and see how other faiths and people belonging to other faiths are treated in nations where Islam is the majority. (Not all nations...but most of them)
I admire UAE for their tolerant views. They even allow temples and churches in Dubai...
In Saudi Arabia , even the possession of a copy of the Bible is a crime and if Christian workers are caught meeting in their own homes praying with fellow Christians they could go to jail and be deported. Public practice of any other religion is banned.
Have we seen protests from other nations because of this stupid "law"? and i'd repeat it. Its a stupid law.
Imagine if practising Islam is banned in any country..
Imagine the public outcry and protests that would emerge! It is an unthinkable scenario! Yet its perfectly normal for believers of other faiths to be persecuted for the "crime" of following their own beliefs in some Islamic countries.
What rights Muslims should have on non-Muslims to allow or disallow them anything? Isn’t that preposterous?
It would be much better if these protestors protest against Islams own "insider" enemies first.
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend, thankfully, she left me before we met.[ This Message was edited by: whizkidd on 2006-02-05 06:57 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-05 07:37:41
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On 2006-02-04 11:56:18, amnesia wrote:
one thing I should point out is that it's not anyone's place to say what an idividual should and should not be doing, because what's normal to you isn't normal to them. It's the typical example of how western ideology has simply pushed those to the edge of paranoia.
limiting this discussion strictly to the cartoon, i would have thought a western nation was entitled to pursue it's own ideology within its own borders. i think people would also do well to remember that the western laws and cultural values which allowed the cartoon to be published are exactly the same laws and values which entitle others to protest against it.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 07:56:25
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On 2006-02-05 07:56:25, gelfen wrote:
limiting this discussion strictly to the cartoon, i would have thought a western nation was entitled to pursue it's own ideology within its own borders. i think people would also do well to remember that the western laws and cultural values which allowed the cartoon to be published are exactly the same laws and values which entitle others to protest against it.
@gelfen, Absolutely agreed!
One of the Western virtues (Not only western, it is now considered a democratic view) is that criticisms of the social or political order form an integral part of their cultural heritage. If it were not for this Western tradition, it would have been impossible to expose the infractions of basic human rights that took place at Abu Ghraib. In fact, it was the existence of these basic democratic institutions that led eventually to the abolition of slavery in the United States . This same democratic impulse brought about an end to colonialism. And it is this very spirit that will bring an end to the policies that prevailed at Abu Ghraib and at Guantanamo.
But is it not rather shocking that [while these criticisms of the West are going on,] hardly any mention has been made of the many prisons that are scattered throughout the Arab world, such as Mazza (near Damascus ), or Abu Zaabal (near Cairo )?
Are people on these prisons not people? Or Human right laws applies only to prisoners in American (western) jails?
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Posted: 2006-02-05 08:05:10
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i forgot to add, with the proviso that their ideology does not contravene basic human rights.
@whizz: i think you'll find it's more fashionable to protest against the west, mostly because they have laws which necessitate that the authorities are accountable for their actions, and which protect you from repurcussions when those investigations are made. additionally, you can make a wide range of accusations under the guise of "free speech".
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Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore 
[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2006-02-05 07:20 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-05 08:19:34
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Didnt really read all of the previous post.... but i get the brief issues in this thread.... well im not reffering to anyone... but im just gonna speak my mind here... if u follow a religion and its practices... meaning you respect it. People who make fun of religion with comics, movies, etc.... means they dont respect that religion.... One thing for sure is.... the creator of that comic is not Islam.... if he/she is Islam one would not dare disrespect Islam... thus the creator is not Islam.. IF let say the creator is Islam... then something wrong wth its mind... and people will get offended like any other way... coz its just wrong... damn wrong.. its totally forbidden.
I giv u a simple example... you love your mother, respect your mother.. she take cares of you.. provide you food and water.... now tell me.. would you disrespect your mother making jokes about her?? how about other people do that about your mother, would you get offended?? its the same with Islam and any religion..
sorry if im too harsh or anything... didnt mean to be rude... but some1 need to tell the facts in the face.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 10:07:44
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(i have tried you to tell you some truths...if you wish to ignore, or read in a wrong way that is up to u...but what i say comes from the heart...i do not mean no harm to anyone...only the best...dont be some screwed person in the head that doesnt listen to anything...open your hearts...read with an open mind...then make your own decisions...im always here if you want to ask anything...i rarely look at these threads...so pm me or whatever...) = i wrote this at the end but thought its more relevant at beginiging...enjoy!
i think firstly u have to understand the importance of Mohammed (peace be upon him (PBUH)) in islam...
you have to realise what kind of a man he was...he was very very similar to jesus (PBUH) and most of the other prophets or messengers that came before them, including moses, noah, abraham etc etc...
if a cat was hurt...he would assist it...
if a old lady needed a hand he would assist her...
people use to hear propoganda about this guy...and they would hate him so much...they would spread a message everywhere...not to listen to him etc etc...but when people use to see him for themselves, they would realise instantly that this is a true man...that would listen to his message and accept islam...his message was simply this...that there is no god...but Allah (Allah is the arabic word for god) and Mohammed (PBUH) is the last and final messenger of god....
The Prophet's sayings (Hadith), Some typical examples are as follows:
"To pursue knowledge is obligatory on every believing (man and woman)." [Ibn Majah]
"Removing a harmful thing from the road is charity." [Bukhari, Muslim]
"Those who do not show tenderness and love cannot expect to have tenderness shown to them." [Bukhari]
"Adore Allah (God) as though you see Him; even if you do not see Him, He nonetheless sees you." [Bukhari, Muslim]
Although Muhammad is deeply loved, revered and emulated by Muslims as God's final messenger, he is not an object of worship.
for more info on Muhammed (PBUH) or even muslims beliefs on Jesus (PBUH) check out
http://www.islamchannel.tv/IntroductionToIslam/Introduction.aspx
and lick whatever you choose to educate yourself about...
now as a muslim today...you try to immitate or follow the teachings of Mhammed (PBUH)...if a man you love, respect and follow is being ridiculed by anyone in anyway or form...i think it is only right to protest...so that this great man, who brought peace to this earth is never ridiculed again!
i understand some of the arguments of freedom of speach etc etc...
firstly publishing facts, figures, scientific evidences is all good and sound...
having views on a person is another thing
but taking the mickey out of a man, you aint even read about, out of a man, you have never studied, out of a man that you dont know what significance he is to 1 fifth of the worlds population...any man...is absoloutly ridculous...having competitions so you can see who can ridicule a man more is absoloutly ridiculous!
there is no defence for such an action...
now today in the 21st century...some muslims have gone astray, soem muslims have forgotten the true teachings of islam...
the whole world should be educated about this man...including muslims who dont know much...
islam doesnt need modernising, whether talking bout halal meat, or justice or womens rights...islam needs to be read about...thhe teachings need to be spread...im not saying everyone become muslim...im saying look at the true teachings of islam...not what some crazy man in any country does...
when you look at religions, you dont look at some corrupt human who says he follows this religion but doesnt do nothing the religion says...you look at the religion itself and whether it teaches that...
for example:
when a person who doesnt have a clue how to drive a car sits in a merc worth £500k drives it and bashes it up...you dont say that the car is shit? or the car is bad...u say the man is a nutter...in the same way you criticise the person not the religion...
Islam is a way of life, it teaches u how to do everything in the perfectest of all ways...but the problem is people half follow this and half follow that, and that is not ideal...
you see islam teaches how to treat fellow humans...to give in charity, to never sleep if your neighbour is hungry etc etc
it also teaches morals and manners etc etc
if you were to examine the laws of a muslim, the laws of islam, then i garuntee that the morals and ethics which islam teaches and guides are better than any human rights laws, better than any women rights laws and more just than any laws in this modern world we live in today...
but you know as i said earlier...more than 250,000 books have been written against islam, and the media is widely criticising the religion instead of certain individuals who tarnish the name...this has kind of brainwashed people into hating muslims and islam...
when muslims start following this mans teachings once again thats when islam will flourish...not to say it isnt now or anything...as it is the fastest growing religion in the west (meaning america and europe...) and guess what all the propoganda about muslim women being abused...well...two thirds of the people who revert back to islam are women...and remmeber i am talking bout europe and america...the so called democratic and modernised countries...
who read the times...24th january 2006...page 4...(you can check on this by the way)
prince charles...tells wal mart...one of the biggest corporations in the world...
"we in the west need to go to islamic teachers and learn how to learn once again from our hearts as well as our minds."
peace be with you all...
dealer3
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Posted: 2006-02-05 13:27:19
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