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@joe, In Islam, other religions are respected and do exist quite harmoniously (might be spelled incorrectly), it's only when another religion tries to take over a region or control it that it's rejected.

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Posted: 2006-03-08 01:10:14
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Scotts you watching to much CNN!!

How many poor muslim countries are there in Africa?
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Posted: 2006-03-08 07:45:54
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On 2006-03-08 00:44:59, axxxr wrote:

Its a fact you know that and i know that,lets not try and pretend shall we!


Apparently you have no argument here as you have taken to simply repeating your assertion without evidence. Again I shall ask you to provide proof, if it is a fact then you should be able to do that.

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Well that what i was point ealier that majority of people in the west are of this opinion.


Your earlier point was a broad generalisation of Westerners.

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Again my point was that too much emphasis is drawn towards the poverty,rather than the positives.


Quite probably because the poverty in many of these countries is so apalling that it dominates the nation. I wonder what poverty stricken Sudanese would want shown on Western televisions creens; Sudanese people desperately in need of aid or someone taking a drink from a newly installed well? The positives in such countries are reported, indeed they should be, but the extent of the problems faced there means that attention has to predominantly focus on them in order to convey just how serious the situation is.

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I think its quite obvious between christians and muslims to see who practices their faith more...your deviating from my original point that made.Belief is one thing and practice quite another,you dont need me to explain that one to you..We simply talking about practicing the faith!..in the end religion stands for nothing if you don't practice it...I could say im into Taoism or whatever but if i dont practice it that stands for nothing.


You seem to like drawing attention to the fact that your comments are obvious or simple ... simplistic would be a more apt term I think. How is it obvious who practices their faith more? You have yet to inform me of the criteria you are using to decide what constitutes a practitioner and how you have been able to apply this criteria to all Muslims and all Christians in order to arrive at your conclusion.

How are belief and practice two different things? Is someone more Christian if they attend Church regularly or live a Christian lifestyle, but do not attend Church? Which of those is to be considered a 'practicing Christian'? It seems to me that belief and practice go hand in hand; if someone believes in a particular faith strongly then they tend to live their life according to that faith.

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Again i don't need to provide evidence that Islam is more widely practiced that christianity,..


... probably because you don't have any.

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Its common knowledge i think,again just look at church attendence figures and Mosque attendence..you will find massive difference.


Look at church attendance and mosque attendance where? America? Britain? Saudi Arabia? Poland? Australia? Presumably you are aware of the Church and Mosque attendance figures for everywhere on the planet (such information being 'common knowledge' of course) and thus you are able to arrive at your 'informed' conclusion.

What exactly do attendance figures tell us about people's individual beliefs or how they practice their faith in everyday life? Does such information let us know if people attending church or the mosque are merely paying lip service to their faith and not actually practicing their religion outside of that setting?

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Thats your opinion but it don't mean that your right!


Mercifully it also does not preclude the overwhelming possibility that you are wrong.

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Your opinon is always that U.S are somehow the good guys and leaders of the free world and all that rubbish!


Gosh aren't I lucky to have someone here who knows my opinion better than I do?! If you would care to read through my past posts on this forum, and others, you would see that I criticise the U.S. where I feel it is wrong and defend it where I feel it is right. This is called taking an objective viewpoint, something you clearly aren't familiar with.

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....disagreeing is one thing but not seeing that most problems are american made is beyond me.


I would like to rephrase your statement if I may, it should read:

"Seeing disagreement as anything but an attack on my views and a challenge to my narrow minded vision of the world is beyond me."

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Again i will have to say to you that most Americans are Anti-Islam...


... and again I shall have to ask you to provide proof of your claims. As before, if this is a fact then it should not be too difficult to provide such proof, of course if it is one of your 'facts' ...

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... at the moment because islam is a minority religion its allowed to carry on alongside other faiths,


Islam is allowed to spread and be practiced freely in the U.S. because the U.S. has freedom of religion. Of course I appreciate that this is incredibly difficult for you to accept because it doesn't involve a conspiracy theory, bashing the U.S. or claiming someone is being victimised.

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... but i think the hardcore christian fundamentalists that run and fund the current U.S andministration may have other ideas...


The current Administration has shown no signs of ending America's religious freedom. Can you provide us with evidence to show how you arrived at your opinion?

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... time will reveal what my point is....


There is a device called the electron microscope, so powerful that it can actually be used to see into the atomic world, the very atoms that make up the universe. Even if we were to use that microscope we still couldn't reveal what your point is.

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Their are no other facts to consider,some like to live in denial of a problem and some choose to accept it like me.


Ah the battle worn call of someone without an argument who's cherished view of the world is being challenged.

To list a few factors to consider:

The role of the non-fundamentalist right
The role of the American left and centre
The role Muslim voters would play in elections
The possibility of overturning/modifying the First Amendment
The pretext for such discrimination
The possibility of a backlash against such a measure
The possibility that this is a half-brained conspiracy theory thought up by someone incapable of seeing the world except through rabid anti-American paranoia

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The Truth is not often to everyones taste,but thats the nature of reality...


I wonder if anyone can guess which two words in that sentence I am surprised to see being used.

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Try and understand my point before calling me narrow minded,..i could also say the same about your opinons but i choose not to go their..


It is inherently difficult to understand paranoid ravings that have no basis in reality.

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My association with Holocaust was because of what muslims are facing today,..If we are to learn from history and that is keeping quite about problems which later on become uncontrolable isn't the best way..the U.S is directly responsible for murdering 100'000 of muslims in various parts of the world..and if thats not persecution then what is?


Muslims today are facing nothing like the Holocaust and to suggest otherwise is not only an apalling misuse of history, but also utterly rediculous and contemptible. You clearly have no respect for anything beyond your own twisted and hate filled views; so desperate are you to vindicate your delusions that you have to resort to extremes such as this. If I were a Muslim I would be utterly embaressed and angered to have someone like you purport to speak for me.

The U.S. is responsible for many deaths over the years as are many other countries, including Muslim countries. You simply choose to see what you wish.

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Once again your inncorrect opinion!


Again can we have proof of your assertions. Surely you are able to show how my opinion is incorrect with the proof that you believe makes your own correct?

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I could say that same for you....you seem to go over and over the same argument or take away from what was actually said.


Translation: You pick me up on points I do not have a satisfactory answer to other than to repeat my unfounded claims.

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You historical account was quite interesting and very facinating but it did'nt address my original argument that america breeds terrorism,which it does!


Did you actually read it or did you just type that because you couldn't think of a better rebuttal other than to bash America?

If you read over what I wrote you can see that explains that 'terrorism' is not purely the result of America (or Israel for that matter), but has its roots in multiple factors. These factors do include America and Israel, but also intolerance of non-extremists by extremists and a desire to change Islamic society to suit their own views.

You keep making these simplistic statements yet offer nothing in the way of evidence, data or sources to backup your views. Are you able to do so? If not could you please just say so.

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Safeguards religon only for non-muslims,ask the many muslims who have the mosques fire bombed or mosques who are constantly watched by FBI agents or campaigns by christian fundamentalists to have mosques shut down..hardly safeguarding is it.


How many mosques have been firebombed? How many of those were firebombed by the U.S. government? How many mosques are being watche dby the F.B.I.? How many of those are being watched without proper reason? How many of those Christian fundamentalists are protesting with official government support? Which policies has the U.S. government enacted to motivate people to protest against Muslims?

People are intolerant all over the world, that isn't to say they are reflective of the whole of society. It's hypocritical that you should be using the actions of a minority in America to attack America as a whole when you accuse people of doing the same thing with Islam.

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Yes i am saying that America is inherently anti-islamic and yes they would ban it if they could..Their are fundamentalist christiantian movements active in america who would like to see islam banned yes!...maybe their is talk of it at govt level im not sure...but the people who who are behind Bush & Co are these people who push for war such as in the Iraq case.


You are either remarkably uninformed or deliberately misrepresenting the facts (or perhaps both). How much of the American population do these American fundamentalists, who are calling for Islam to be banned, make up? It seems to me that they are most definitely in the minority, which once again labels you as a hypocrite for condemining an entire people based upon the actions of a few.

You don't know if there is talk of banning Islam at government level yet you are willing to label America inherently anti-Islamic? What exactly is it that you are going on here?

The people who support President Bush come from all walks of life, some are very right-wing other are less so. Some are black, some are white. They're not all Christians and they are not all fundamentalists. What you are doing is stereotyping, presumably because it is easier to believe that anyone you don't agree with must take an extreme position and couldn't possibly be just a normal person.

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These points which you have made are completely irrelevant, Religion is a different issue and like you mention banning Islam would be no small step..I believe in time the U.S will take some measure against the spread and practice of islam i really believe that!


As I said previously, the U.S. is not prone to buckling to world opinion when it is determined to do something and 9/11 would have been a good opportunity for anyone who wished to take punitive measures against Islam. The majority of world opinion was decidedly pro-American at the time and people in America were scared. Such fear could have been played upon to demonise Islam. The fact of the matter is that this did not happen. Instead we have seen the American government differntiate between Islam and the terrorism of extremists, hardly the actions of people who hate Islam and wish to cast it in a bad light.

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Maybe in your skewed reality obscured by america they don't exsist..Im not intent in blaming the worlds problems on the U.S...im telling you and i know it to be so!..The U.S is the problem,....from Wars to Global Warming ...


You're telling me and you know it to be so? Where is your proof? Where is your evidence? You keep on giving us your opinion and informing us of how what you say is fact, but we see little to no evidence.

Your instinctive reaction is to blame something that goes wrong on America, you appear to have little ability (if any) to grasp an objective viewpoint or see the world in anything but your own narrow terms. You consistently fall back on the same tired arguments when pressed and are either unwilling or unable to support such arguments with substantive proof.

Quote:... i rest my case!


If only!

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I will ask you to refrain from calling me Paranoid and Dilusional,you could either have a sensible debate or we could have a round of petty name calling...just because you don't agree with me does'nt me that you have any right to say that.


Well I have said it consitently throughout this thread and I shall say it again; you sound paranoid and delusional. That isn't name calling, it's my opinion based upon your posts.

A definition of 'paranoia':

1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.

Admittedly the first definition isn't entirely appropriate since you havn't defended your views with anything approaching logic or reason.

A defintion of 'delusion':

1.
a. The act or process of deluding.
b. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

I think any half sane person reading your posts in this thread, let alone others, can see that you display an adherence to views that do not stand up under the weight of scrutiny or informed debate and which cannot be supported by any substantial amount of evidence and which you cling to despite there being evidence to the contrary.

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In fact your dislusional for not seeing where the problems are in this,..


More hypocrisy:

"I will ask you to refrain from calling me Paranoid and Dilusional,you could either have a sensible debate or we could have a round of petty name calling"

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... try and understand my point before flying off the handle ok...


As I have said before I find it difficult to understand your views because they aren't actually based in anything other than conspiracy theories and and a seemingly rampant aversion to reality. Incidentally I don't believe I 'flew off the handle', rather I merely informed you that I believed you were becoming more paranoid and delusional, a claim that I have set out above.

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... again do you really think the people who run america would allow Islam to flourish,. i think any sane person would know the answer to that one...


Yes I do and it does. You yourself said:

"U.S is where Islam is spreading the fastest"

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Civil war would spread between Christians and Muslims over control of power.


What is your basis for this claim? What is the scenario you are using? How would such a conflict develop?

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Well maybe that might happened who's to know for sure,but in an ideal world we could all live in harmony but that will never happen we both know this.



I didn't mention anything about 'living in harmony', just a natural progression. I'm quite sure that there would be problems along the way, but I don't think they would lead to civil war.

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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC

[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-03-09 02:18 ]
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Posted: 2006-03-08 23:07:44
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On 2006-03-08 07:45:54, 786KBR wrote:
Scotts you watching to much CNN!!


I very rarely watch CNN, I prefer the BBC.

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How many poor muslim countries are there in Africa?


The following is a list of poor African nations where the majority of the population is Muslim:

Burkina Faso
Chad
Djibouti
Ethiopia
Guinea
Mali
Mauritania
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Somalia
Sudan

It is prudent to point out that a number of poor African nations, whilst not having a Muslim majority, have sizeable Muslim populations, which account for more than 10% of the total population e.g. Tanzania.

So to answer your question; it depends upon one's definition of a Muslim state. Certainly there are a number of nations, which have Islam as the dominant religion, but there are also a number of nations, which have large Muslim populations that aren't in an overall majority, but which some may consider to be a Muslim country.

If you have a look at this map of members of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference you will see countries included that I have not mentioned here. Some of those nations are also poor.
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Posted: 2006-03-09 00:39:03
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it's in my opinion that many Christian messengers (Witnesses and so on) go to African country to spread faith to those who need it.

Joining a religion doesn't make you wealthy and isn't a cause for poverty. It's the faith that people to choose after they're born into a culture that they're basically stuck with. Islam in African countries wasn't always there.

Sadly, it's harder for African countries to survive daily due to the Annual Income, and the weather they live in as well.

It should be noted that the reason they did not become wealthy countries is because they stuck to tradition for much longer than any other country, and it's being able to survive, be the best in a group, or having a family which is considered wealth.
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Posted: 2006-03-09 01:21:36
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A few frightening similitaries.. Or something to think about. 1. 1930s Germany the Hitler Youth Movement = America 1990s the Americacorp Youth Movement 2. 1930/40s Germany the Brownshirts an SS = 2001 America the Dept of Homeland Security. 3. 1930s Germany Adolf Hitler Seizes Power = 2000 America George Bush Seizes Power.. 4. 1920s 30 40s German persecution of Jewish people = 2000s American wars on Muslim countries Afghanistan and Iraq.. Wake up world History is Repeating itself.
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Posted: 2006-03-09 11:05:00
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@ scots

Sudan and somalia yes, Burkino Faso isnt that poor, You also forgot Kenya!

So you got 3 poor (drastically) against the rest of the world!
If anything Islam is not spread amongst poverty!

Just clearing up that point!

One more thing.... what the hell are you on arguing about!!?? U nitpicking at axxxrs posts and not really answering or stating anything!
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Posted: 2006-03-09 12:17:31
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On 2006-03-09 11:05:00, SsTiTcH wrote:
A few frightening similitaries.. Or something to think about. 1. 1930s Germany the Hitler Youth Movement = America 1990s the Americacorp Youth Movement 2. 1930/40s Germany the Brownshirts an SS = 2001 America the Dept of Homeland Security. 3. 1930s Germany Adolf Hitler Seizes Power = 2000 America George Bush Seizes Power.. 4. 1920s 30 40s German persecution of Jewish people = 2000s American wars on Muslim countries Afghanistan and Iraq.. Wake up world History is Repeating itself.



Very well said,and thats precisely my argument for which some people here think im paranoid and delusional!
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Posted: 2006-03-09 13:01:16
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these discussions always come to the same conclusion so lets cut to the chase

bush is a twat
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Posted: 2006-03-09 13:56:28
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The problem is much bigger than bush,..even if bush goes i don't think it would change much in terms of america's objective towards its foreign policy...Bush in other worlds is a small snake in a much larger snake pit!
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Posted: 2006-03-09 14:05:20
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