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from your last post @ scot...
not trying to argue or anything...most of wat you say is correct bout the peace stuff etc...and absoloutly i and every true muslim would agree with it...you have to understand that palestinians including hamas want peace...however absurd that stands, you have to realise at the end of the day everyone wants peace...
i assure you, if you look at the situation, the palestnians have nothing, no economy, no jobs, nothing...
whereas the 'israelis', its not the same case...many people say the occupying goverment is like the old aparteid goverment of south africa...
more to the point, if you heard the speeches made by the occupyinig primiie minister, ehud olmert, if you read the quotes, quoting also in our british media, (quotes can't be bias etc, but the rest txt may be misleading) he says that i still pray that israel becomes a jewish state, from the mediteranian to the jordon river...which basically means including the west bank and the gaza strip...which means, no arabs or palestinians...if you read the stats, made by independant organisations, you will see that the jewish population there, the majority is very very racist...they simply dont want to see palestninains, hear palestinians nothing...they dont want them anywhere near them...to me, its clear the israelis do not want a palestinian state beside them, and if there is a state then they want a 6 metre concrete fence...WHICH HAS BEEN DECLARED ILLEGAL BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE, but israel is immune to these rulings....the amount of laws it breaks is unbelievable...this cannot be disputed as international lawyers, all agree with this, the only people that disagree and the americans and israelis...
at the end of the day, if america and israel want peace, they can easily get it, all they got to do, is allow palestinians access to the third holiest place for muslims in the world, in jeruselum...give them there freedom, by not puting check points on the way to school for children, and stop being racist and live like humans...they can easily bring peace, but instead they want to starve the palestnian people, they want them to surrender their land and go some place else...4 million palestinians are already refugee's, thats most of the population...many permantly live in camps in lebanon and jordon, that permanantly...unbelievable...the palestinians are only fighting for justice...they want recognition of their rights and their status...they dont hate no one for sake of it...but they fight for justice and peace... take a trip there one day and see for yourself...thats best way to see foryouself and have your own opinion...when you go, just be careful the israelis dont shoot you...their the only people you need to fear if you go there...
@ scot and anyone...i seriously, and all muslims generally, are not crazy people, were not people to be rigtened of, were not terrorists, were not people who want war, i ask you the question, if your mother was killed in an airstirke one morning, what would you do, if the people are roaming the streets everyday? if your father was imprisonoed for being a muslim man breathing in the 21st century, would you forget if he comes back after so long mentally ill? what you do if your brothers are killed everydy, byb gunfghts, by bombs raniing from the sky? what would you do if foregin troops came one day, invaded your country, made it worst and after three yrs, they start biulding palaces for their presidents to come and reside in? all muslims strive for is peace and justice, all over the world...if it works dimplomatically then thats the best way...but in the meantime if a man is standing with a gun to your head, you have to fight back...we only mean the best for all people...all humans...as we are one race, we are taught this...
read this extract from a poem, written by a palestinian youth:
"my biggest fear is, the tank that has just gone will turn back,
do you know the truth of where your money goes?
do youo let your media decieve your mind?
is this the truth? nobody, nobody knows...
has our world gone all blind?
terror breathes the air i breathe
terror is the checkpoint on my way to school
terror is the robbery on my land
terror is the torture of my mother
terror is the imprisonment of my innocent father
terror is the bullet in baby brother
terror is the bulldozers and the tanks
terror si the bombs that fall outside my door
all due to your funds
you blame me for defending myself
im terrorized in my own land
do you know the truth of where your money goes?
do youo let your media decieve your mind?
is this the truth? nobody, nobody knows...
has our world gone all blind?"
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Posted: 2006-05-14 22:27:12
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the Holocaust was genocide
It has not been proved yet!
read some history. ignorance is one thing, willful ignorance quite another.
_________________
Whomsoever you see in distress, recognize in him a fellow man
Gelfen's special place where nobody talks to him anymore 
edit: fixed formatting
[ This Message was edited by: masseur on 2006-05-16 13:21 ]
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Posted: 2006-05-16 13:46:17
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Quote:yes, Jewish were there and they have right to live there, but my claim is toward those Jewish who had migrated from their countries, to make Israel. an Indian Jewish is Indian, not Israeli. then this Israel, with his migratory people is not deep-rooted.
If a country wishes to take in other people then that is up to the country in question and the people concerned if they wish to move to that country.
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firstly thank for writing accurate definition of the word genocide, according to this definition, and it's important parts: systematic and organised: what word you choose to define Ghana, Sabra, Shatila, Mansori,.. events. you can use table, icecream, or even peace to describe this events. but this doesn't change any thing.
adding to that mentioned genocides, killing barehanded children is just an action of this regim to exterminate a nation.
For soemthing like Sabra I would use the word 'massacre'. The Israelis have not perpertaed genocide on the Palestinians, there ha sbeen no systematic campaign to exterminate the Palestinians as a people. There have been atrocities, but genocide is on a completely different scale.
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It has not been proved yet!
Visit the death camps.
Look at the testimony of the survivors.
Look at the testimony of the perpetrators.
Look at the records kept by the Nazis.
Look at the images of mounds of human hair taken from the dead.
Look at the images of the mounds of bodies.
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I think questioning about the events that occure around us is a good thing.
Questioning is one thing, accepting reality is another.
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yes, I question about Jordan, about Saudi Arabia & others. but in less than a minute I get the answer: they have right to exist, no doubt.
you can not compare creating this countries by creating Israel. there is a systematic migration, open your eyes!
Why do they have a right to exist, you still haven't explained that? I can compare the creation of those countries to the creation of Israel. Jordan is an artificial country just as Iraq is, they were both created by Britain, just as a number of African countries were. The United Kingdom itself didn't exist before 1707.
The point being that countries can and do change. Just because a country is new doe snot mean to say that it ha snay less right to exist thana country that has existed for hundreds of years. At some point the 'old countries' themselves were new.
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Tired of repeating this sentences, but saying it again:
Regarding to that Jewish from other countries: It is not their land. certainly God wants them -without considering whats their religion- all Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Buddhist to follow their faiths and demonstrate love for their countryman and co-exist beside one another.
It isn't really anyone's land, it was there long before humans walked the earth and it will be there after we are gone; we are merely caretakers, not the owners. If someone wishes to go and live in another country and that country is happy for them to do so then that is no one else's business. If Israel wishes to accept immigrants then that is up to Israel. If and when there is a Palestinian satte they can choose to accept immigrants too, again it is there business.
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I think value of the human, justic, patriotism is more than tree, building and other materials. you look at Palestine as a tourist. but I look at it as a part of the world that in it some human values is grinding.
I look at it as something that is causing misery because some people are too filled with hate to reach a compromise. What is the use of a homeland for either the Palestinians of Israelis if all they do is ruin it with incessant fighting? What good is patriotism if it brings misery and suffering to its people?
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"A racist is someone that hates a type of people because of their race. Sometimes they will try to kill the group of people". wikipedia
refering to this definition, I would like to explain my opinion again:
Israel is a racist country because hates Muslims-if you say that they love Muslims, or at minimum, doesnot care about them, how you can explain killing barehanded childeren? because is making a country regarding to their religion, may be race. If you think the world racist is not suitable, I can use religionist, even if you want philanthropist. but I can not forget their actions.
So by your logic that means that Iran is anti-Muslim because during the Iraq-Iran war Iran killed Muslims. Your logic would also make the Palestinians racist since Palestinian suicide bombers have killed Jews.
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I don't see a brief connection between things that I said & those you said in my reply...anyway...of course I don't say anything to Germany's youth for the actions of their grandfathers, or other people for the actions of their fathers. I complain to the Israel soldiers that live in nowadays world.
I reitrate my opinion: If there were or they are evil mans that did or doing evil works, It can not authorize others to do so. evil is evil, even if all of the people of the world now or past used to do it.
But constantly laying blame upon people only serves to further the conflict. The Israelis accuse Palestinians of terrorism, the Palestinians accuse the Israelis or oppression. At some point that has to stop for the situation to move forwards.
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what I can see in your reasoning is some kind of defer to the majority of the world or if I want to say better, defer to the bullies.
others opinion about an event does not cause me to have same opinion about that event. I live with my opinion & want others to explain their reasoning in logical way about that opinion, may be I accept their opinion.
As I said, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. If the majority of the world agree supon something then it becomes accepted. especially if the most powerful countries back it. Whether you like that or not that is how the world works.
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absolutely disagree! I think it's our duty to rail toward justic and not accepting things just because absolute majority say. we should live with our mind not others, if it would be then what is the difference between a man & a puppet?
'Justice' is a subjective term, one man's justice is another man's injustice. There is a time to oppose what we do not like and there is also a time to accept the reality of a situation and work with it.
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I think if the Jewish that palestine is their land start claiming, it's their right & I would support them to get their land. I promise.
But that's just it, I would rather not support anyone in any fight because I would rather there wasn't a conflict in the first place.
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let's have a solution for this problem:
the migrant Jewishes returned to their countries, execute a plebiscite- take part all the people of the land, regardless of their religion, Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Buddhist, pagan,..- like in Lebanon. then live with eachother.
As I said above one must accept the reality of the situation; immigrants to Israel are not going to leave. If you don't like that fine, but that won't change the situation.
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absolutely agreed.
but we should be conscious to dont forget justic in the way of getting peace. I believe to "firm peace" & for getting this, I think we should care about justic. if we quickly say to twos that you should accept peace & no sides have the right to claim, it would not lead to have peace in general. In a world that people just care about peace, not justice, it would not be any guarantee that in another corner of the world another folk, race, group claim for a newland. because they can predict the opinion of the general public: they want peace then they will accept, if we just want half of this land.
But hat is 'justice'? How do you find a 'justice' that is going to suit everyone? Sometimes there is no answer that is going to please evryone, one has to accept that and do the ebst one can. Not everyone is going to be happy with whatever settlement there is in the Middle East, some are going to regard it as being unjust, whether that be some Israelis thinking that there should be no Paleastinian homeland or some Palestinians thinking that Israel should not exist.
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Palestine problem can be solved more peacefully than anyone think. just simple plebiscite regardless of their religion and for those who wants to make a country regarding to their religion, race or etc, make an artificial island or something like this.
The situation could be solved if people stopped taking sides and actually concentrated on making peace.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-05-16 13:58 ]
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Posted: 2006-05-16 14:18:30
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from your last post @ scot...
not trying to argue or anything...most of wat you say is correct bout the peace stuff etc...and absoloutly i and every true muslim would agree with it...you have to understand that palestinians including hamas want peace...however absurd that stands, you have to realise at the end of the day everyone wants peace...
i assure you, if you look at the situation, the palestnians have nothing, no economy, no jobs, nothing...
whereas the 'israelis', its not the same case...many people say the occupying goverment is like the old aparteid goverment of south africa...
What do the Israelis have? Yes they have more money, yes they have more weapons, yes they have more jobs, but do they have what they really want? Do they have peace and safety for their people? All the material success in the world counts for nothing if you can't enjoy it.
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more to the point, if you heard the speeches made by the occupyinig primiie minister, ehud olmert, if you read the quotes, quoting also in our british media, (quotes can't be bias etc, but the rest txt may be misleading) he says that i still pray that israel becomes a jewish state, from the mediteranian to the jordon river...which basically means including the west bank and the gaza strip...which means, no arabs or palestinians...if you read the stats, made by independant organisations, you will see that the jewish population there, the majority is very very racist...they simply dont want to see palestninains, hear palestinians nothing...they dont want them anywhere near them...to me, its clear the israelis do not want a palestinian state beside them, and if there is a state then they want a 6 metre concrete fence...WHICH HAS BEEN DECLARED ILLEGAL BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE, but israel is immune to these rulings....the amount of laws it breaks is unbelievable...this cannot be disputed as international lawyers, all agree with this, the only people that disagree and the americans and israelis...
You are judging all Israelis by one man's words? Should we judge all Palestinians by the actions of a few? The hardline settlers seem to be the ones causing problems on the Israeli side. There are people on both sides who do not want compromise, but if we continue to focus on them and allow them to dominate then there will never be peace.
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at the end of the day, if america and israel want peace, they can easily get it, all they got to do, is allow palestinians access to the third holiest place for muslims in the world, in jeruselum...give them there freedom, by not puting check points on the way to school for children, and stop being racist and live like humans...they can easily bring peace, but instead they want to starve the palestnian people, they want them to surrender their land and go some place else...4 million palestinians are already refugee's, thats most of the population...many permantly live in camps in lebanon and jordon, that permanantly...unbelievable...the palestinians are only fighting for justice...they want recognition of their rights and their status...they dont hate no one for sake of it...but they fight for justice and peace... take a trip there one day and see for yourself...thats best way to see foryouself and have your own opinion...when you go, just be careful the israelis dont shoot you...their the only people you need to fear if you go there...
I've been there, I visited the Middle East a few years ago.
It is not just down to Israel and America, it takes two to tango. Israel wants security, it wants to know that it will not be under threat of attack from its neighbours. Ghandi won independence for India against a far more powerful country than Israel through non-violence. How? Because he did not fight back. If an opponent has nothing to fight against he cannot defeat you no matter how strong he is. Violence begets violence, everytime there is a suicide bombing it prompts Israel to retaliate, which then prompts another suicide bombing and so on. Have suicide bombings given the Palestinians a homeland? Have air strikes given the Israelis security?
If the Israelis gave the occupied territories back to the Palestinians and helped them the onus would be on the Palestinians. Hamas would come under pressure to recognise Israel and live peacefully beside it. If the Palestinians stopped fighting Israel and protested peacefully the Israeli military would be impotent and the Israeli government would come under pressure to leave the occupied territories.
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@ scot and anyone...i seriously, and all muslims generally, are not crazy people, were not people to be rigtened of, were not terrorists, were not people who want war, i ask you the question, if your mother was killed in an airstirke one morning, what would you do, if the people are roaming the streets everyday? if your father was imprisonoed for being a muslim man breathing in the 21st century, would you forget if he comes back after so long mentally ill? what you do if your brothers are killed everydy, byb gunfghts, by bombs raniing from the sky? what would you do if foregin troops came one day, invaded your country, made it worst and after three yrs, they start biulding palaces for their presidents to come and reside in? all muslims strive for is peace and justice, all over the world...if it works dimplomatically then thats the best way...but in the meantime if a man is standing with a gun to your head, you have to fight back...we only mean the best for all people...all humans...as we are one race, we are taught this...
What would I do? Here is what my beliefs teach me:
"The sage does not distinguish between himself and the world;
The needs of other people are as his own.
He is good to those who are good;
He is also good to those who are not good,
Thereby he is good.
He trusts those who are trustworthy;
He also trusts those who are not trustworthy,
Thereby he is trustworthy.
The sage lives in harmony with the world,
And his mind is the world's mind.
So he nurtures the worlds of others
As a mother does her children."
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read this extract from a poem, written by a palestinian youth:
Most interesting, thank you for sharing that.
I wonder though, how many Israeli youths might write something similar about living in fear of bombers or wondering if they will come home alive when they go out? A conflict has two sides to it and people should remember that on both sides are human beings just like themselves. We each have the same hopes and fears; feel the same highs and lows and want what is best for our families. It is all to easy to demonise one's opponents, make them out to be evil and inhumane. When people have been fighting for long enough it becomes comfortable to think of the other in that way, it becomes difficult to move on from that hatred. But move on they must.
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Posted: 2006-05-16 14:56:14
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so if israel has a nuclear plant, thats ok, but if iran or any other countries, thats a problem...
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Posted: 2006-05-16 20:35:56
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it's not about the country per se, but whether that country is viewed as responsible within the global community.
the current iranian president advocates the eradication of an entire people as official policy. the same cannot be said of israel or most western countries.
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Posted: 2006-05-17 05:41:23
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you have so easily been brainwashed...
one day, visit palestine, and if you cant do that, then read some truth, learn about what is actually happening there...
the israeli goverments intention is nothing other than to get rid of every arab/muslim from the medeteranian sea to the jordanian river...ie: including the west bank and gaza strip...but your right wing newspapers wont have that bulging in the headlines at you...
the israeli goverment is currently building a barrier, 6 metre concrete wall, which the international court of justice has ruled ILLEGAL, and that IT SHOULD BE TORNED DOWN! this is the highest court in the world...and today, the illegal occupation builds it even faster than they were before, grabbing more land as they go...
www.ifamericansknew.org
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Posted: 2006-05-17 15:22:57
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If I lived next-door to a bunch of suicide bombers hell-bent on my destruction, I'd want to build a big wall too. Duh!
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Posted: 2006-05-17 15:34:42
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On 2006-05-17 15:34:42, carkitter wrote:
If I lived next-door to a bunch of suicide bombers hell-bent on my destruction, I'd want to build a big wall too. Duh!
If someone tried to steal my land and destroy my property i would quite simply want them destroyed aswell.
That wall is nothing but an excuse to steal yet more land that does'nt belong to them....Israeli's are the ones hell bent on the destruction of the Palestinians.....Palestinians have every right to protect what has always belonged to them,and force is required in their case,since its the Israeli's who fire bullets at stone throwing children.
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Posted: 2006-05-17 17:57:03
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On 2006-05-17 15:22:57, dealer3 wrote:
. . . the israeli goverment is currently building a barrier, 6 metre concrete wall, which the international court of justice has ruled ILLEGAL . . .
Think you'll find that walking on to a bus and blowing it up is illegal as well.
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Posted: 2006-05-17 18:01:13
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