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I'm glad 4 dis thread and I am proud to say that I'm a believer in Jesus and don't have any shame.
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Posted: 2004-11-15 17:21:03
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Hi all.
I'm just offerring my view on what has been recently said. I don't wish to offend anyone and I'm not offended by what has been said. I enjoy this thread and have been challenged in a positive way by some of the views posted here.
I can see how it may be difficult not to offend when speaking "religiously". I suppose it has to be weighed up against the freedom to express oneself as a Christian in a thread like this. Thanking God for changing your life is a positive thing, even though it could possibly offend. I suppose we need to weigh up how strongly we feel about what we are expressing in such a thread. I try not to use "religious" language because I know it probably doesn't make sense to someone who is not a Christian. But if we explain ourselves it can help to remove any offence that may be taken.
God's blessings to you all.
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Neekos
[ This Message was edited by: Neekos on 2004-11-15 23:26 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Neekos on 2004-11-15 23:27 ]
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Posted: 2004-11-16 00:21:24
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On 2004-11-16 00:21:24, Neekos wrote:
I can see how it may be difficult not to offend when speaking "religiously". I suppose it has to be weighed up against the freedom to express oneself as a Christian in a thread like this. Thanking God for changing your life is a positive thing, even though it could possibly offend. I suppose we need to weigh up how strongly we feel about what we are expressing in such a thread. I try not to use "religious" language because I know it probably doesn't make sense to someone who is not a Christian. But if we explain ourselves it can help to remove any offence that may be taken.
God's blessings to you all.
Therein lies the problem with religion. I'd be more for faith than religion - the problem is holy books can be interpreted in many ways. I'm afraid to say I'm not religious, I'm far too cynical a person to belive in one 'perfect' being. I won't go any further as I don't want to start a flame war here.
HOWEVER..... I wish I was more spiritual - I've seen how other countries that are still into their religion - Greek islands and Orthodox catholics, and places like Gozo. People there still have a lot of faith, and the community spirit is great - and people are so much nicer to each other, and the family is still paramount.
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Posted: 2004-11-16 00:38:46
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I, too, feel I'm too cynical to believe in a heaven and a God. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'd like to bring up something that is always on my mind when I'm discussing Christianity.
First of all, we must agree that the Bible is the central pillar of Christianity; it is considered the Word of God on earth, divinely inspired and we should try to abide by it as much as we can. But what if the Bible is unreliable?
What i mean is that the Bible as a document is in itself unreliable. Since the founding of the early church its been continuously edited and changed to suit what the Church thought would suit themselves best.
There are 66 books in the official Bible, but its a fact that there are many many more different books than the 66 we hear of every day. For example: the Dead Sea Scrolls were recently discovered, revealing many books that the early Church left out of the Bible. We are not reading the works of King David, of Solomon, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John--we are reading what the Pope thought would suit his needs best. I mean, this book has been manipulated so much to political ends that everything it says cannot possibly be trusted.
And honestly, when you read the Bible objectively, what else comes to mind that the Book of Virtues I'm sure we all read as kids? It's almsot like a storybook telling us what should be done and what not; the Bible is not a history book because a history book's purpose is to recount past events without assigning meaning to them (the reader does that).
How am i to trust a biased, unreliable storybook then?
Whew thats it for now, sorry if not totally coherent
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Posted: 2004-11-16 07:12:00
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@kim
It's true that's hard to trust it, judging it only by logicall human means. You say 'It's not unreliable' based on you doubts. But what if It's genuine? Of course, man had influence it, yet i know people that sincerely trusted it, and 'the word of GOD' changed their lifes. Yes, these people can be considered. Ignorants, as they weren't interested in whether the bible It's reliable or not. They simply took it as it is, trying to understand it with their heart, not w/ their mind. This is not crazy!
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Posted: 2004-11-16 07:40:55
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On 2004-11-16 07:40:55, PIANOSSO wrote:
@kim
It's true that's hard to trust it, judging it only by logicall human means. You say 'It's not unreliable' based on you doubts. But what if It's genuine? Of course, man had influence it, yet i know people that sincerely trusted it, and 'the word of GOD' changed their lifes. Yes, these people can be considered. Ignorants, as they weren't interested in whether the bible It's reliable or not. They simply took it as it is, trying to understand it with their heart, not w/ their mind. This is not crazy!
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First of all, im saying that it's unreliable
How can we say that the Bible is reliable if it's been edited to suit the needs of people like Pope Alexander (Cesare Borgia, anyone?) and the Spanish Inquisitors?
And how do you have people who follow the Bible but don't read it? It's like telling me to live my life by a doctrine when I have no idea what its about!
Does believing in something make you right? Maybe to you, but I'm sure you consider peoples of other religions to be wrong. But they believe what they do! So they're right and you're wrong? Or what?
After all, faith and religion is about choosing your path; and I'm sure you will agree with me that anyone who blindly follows any religion 'just because' is a fool.
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Posted: 2004-11-16 07:49:00
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...crazy. It's a honest wish to find GOD. Although this is not a secret, a lot of people don't know that GOD reveal Himself to whoever looks sincerely to find Him. It's written in the Bible, for the ones who believe it...
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Posted: 2004-11-16 07:52:25
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On 2004-11-16 07:52:25, PIANOSSO wrote:
...crazy. It's a honest wish to find GOD. Although this is not a secret, a lot of people don't know that GOD reveal Himself to whoever looks sincerely to find Him. It's written in the Bible, for the ones who believe it...
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But you base all your premises upon evidence from the Bible.
I believe I've raised some valid points about the reliability of the Bible, but you dismiss it as crazy? First please explain to me why my argument is not valid, and then we can discuss the process of finding God.
Is it also not possible to be decieved or wrong? I know many people had a sincere wish to create a utopian society simliar to one envisioned in the Bible; and they created something called Communism. They believed it would work, but they created a totalitarian state.
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Posted: 2004-11-16 08:01:00
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@kim. Sorry you got me wrong. I meant people who read it and believe it, of course. I don't getthis: people believe what they do? They rather do what they believe.(think It's right) And yes, That's what makes a human 'good' or 'bad'. Believing in something .just because' isn't faith. It's only conviction! Faith is something that works, that has effects on your life, just the way you wanted it to be. For you, this real faith is not logical. Please read HEBREW chapter 11, the new testament.
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Posted: 2004-11-16 08:17:09
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On 2004-11-16 08:17:09, PIANOSSO wrote:
@kim. Sorry you got me wrong. I meant people who read it and believe it, of course. I don't getthis: people believe what they do? They rather do what they believe.(think It's right) And yes, That's what makes a human 'good' or 'bad'. Believing in something .just because' isn't faith. It's only conviction! Faith is something that works, that has effects on your life, just the way you wanted it to be. For you, this real faith is not logical. Please read HEBREW chapter 11, the new testament.
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People do what they believe and its not necessarily right. Just because you believe something doesn't make you right.
For example: A Buddhist and a Christian believe what they do, but does that make either of them right? That's what i meant -- just because you believe something doesnt make it right.
And how we to decide who is good and what is bad? Maybe I believe that religion should be abolished from government. You may believe otherwise. If we both act according to our beliefs, who is right and who is wrong?
Can faith not be mistaken? Once I may have had faith in Jesus, but I don't any longer. I have faith that my own personal spiritual quest (albeit an athiest one) will lead me where I want to go.
How can we judge others' faiths and beliefs based upon our own? How do we know that we ourselves are not wrong?
Which brings me back to the thing that you repeatedly keep ignoring: How do we know that the Bible is reliable?
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Posted: 2004-11-16 08:30:00
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