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Oh the forum is invaded by geeky SOC talk
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Posted: 2013-11-11 16:34:45
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I am fairly certain that Intel will be releasing 14nm next year.. The foundries necessary have already switched over to this node. So yes there are no products yet but we should see them shortly, and we dont know of any other firm that is there yet (we have conjecture about Samsung which i touched on.. but nothing definitive). That is still 2 nodes ahead of Q S800, remember Q hasnt shown anything so we are in the dark from this perspective on how far along they are with a new process.
Do not compare desktop with mobile. New process nodes are first optimized for performance and then for power efficiency so the low-power versions always comes after the desktop
The ARM reference is the A15, Krait falls below this reference point because of what reason? they designed their own chip, based on what ARM had at the time, their goal was to get a family of SoCs to market ASAP for mind.market share, this 'rush' paid off as they are assumed to be the only/best player for mobile SoCs. Again your comparison i dont think particularly suits this discussion.. could just be me however.
Gosh, please don't repeat the same arguments when i've already said they were wrong. There is no reference, everybody is free to either use A15 or desing their own core, and Krait is not based on an early A15, it is a pure Qualcomm design, from scratch, the only thing it shares with A15 is the instruction set, in other words they can execute the same programs. And Krait didn't fall behind, just look at the benchmarks! The octa based S4 is only on par with the S600 based S4 and way behind the S800 based Note 3 (Samsung may cheat, but comparing Samsung's product between them is still a fair comparaison). Whereas, in terms of battery life, Snapdragon is much better ! Just google "Anandtech s800", " It seems like with Snapdragon 800 we may be ushering in a new generation of battery performance, despite the lack of a traditional process node shrink" , "On the CPU performance front, Snapdragon 800's 2.3GHz Krait 400 cores do appear to hold their own quite well against ARM's Cortex A15. In some cases ARM holds the advantage, while in others the higher clocked Krait 400 takes the lead." And that is coming from Anand, one of the first to expose the whole cheating things:
You keep trying to say that NVIDIA had market share, I think they were in one relevant device in the past 3 years... that is not a good example. I tried to share one with OMAP (the SoC family in general) because they had favorable mind.market share NVIDIA was never comparable to that.. they are for all intents irrelevant. TI lost out due to a SoC that would be ripped apart today wrt the original SD 1GHz SoC.. (much how the maligned 5410 was lamented for not being a homogenous 8 core cpu) I will have to re-read but i believe that there was some 'funny business' with how the SoC used its '1GHz' again its been about 5/6 years so Ill have to research that for you.. (this may be dubious, but its sticking in my mind right now for some reason) I could just be thinking that the OMAP at the time was a better SoC..
They were in Surface and Nexus 7. But it's not just about nVidia, even TI had the marketshare and mind-share, now they quit the mobile space, my point is : if Qualcomm is successful today, it's simply because they have the superior products. Marketshare doesn't last if you don't stay competitive.
I think that TI ran into some issues with the OMAP5 design/production, they announced that it would be their last but i thought it made it into some products, if what you say is true, i guess they didnt. so i think they chose to refocus elsewhere.
OMAP5 didn't make it.
Broadwell is a commercial product.. its 14nm itll be here in a few months. Yes not _NOW_ but thats a little nitpicky.. we are discussing minutia though so i understand your sentiment.
Don't compare smartphones with Desktop.
Better is subjective.. Its (S800) an earlier design based around reference data from ARM. Defining it by saying its better than a younger product is difficult for me to agree with because our reference is based around archaic software restrictions. (K3.4 vs anything that can fully support HMP through bigLITTLE, and 64bit instruction which would be K3.10) all things being equal, running 3.10 i doubt that the S800 would be able to keep up.. it may last longer in the day (also extremely relevant in the mobile space, but may not necessarily be the primary focus of this discussion, unless im reading your sentiment incorrectly
My point is, both are equally fast, but Snapdragon is signifcantly more power efficient. Maybe next implementations of big little will be better, but not today, and the kernel will change nothing. However, in theory, they are the way to go in the future, but not in their current implementation, because concept and practice are two different things.
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the new S800 is still v7.. take that as you will.
It is v7 ! But it is not A15-based ! It is completely different from A15!
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Posted: 2013-11-11 16:51:16
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Anybody interested much that the Z1f was spotted on Sony's website ? Lmao
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Posted: 2013-11-11 16:59:22
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On 2013-11-11 16:59:22, MusaD.Dragon wrote:
Anybody interested much that the Z1f was spotted on Sony's website ? Lmao
doesn´t seem like it
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Posted: 2013-11-11 17:03:22
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Hahah ikr
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Posted: 2013-11-11 17:46:01
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I thought it said Z1s.
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Posted: 2013-11-11 18:07:39
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Please stop your ranting comment the differences of core design, Karim is right.
Only Q and Apple now does the core customization without relying on ARM reference.
Samsung vow to do so for their next chipset (it was report roughly same time as Exynos 64 bit).
Exynos 5420 is still not true octa-core (it was report earlier month ago software can't change such a faulty hardware design, the problems are heat and power can't be optimization for mobile).
MediaTek first and true octa is MT6592 which based on all Cortex A7 architecture.
................
Moto G will be the next catcher when it arrive
it equipped with Q's effort (MSM8226) to compete in MediaTek's space
It's Quad-Cortex A7 under brand of Snapdragon 400 / Snapdragon S4
[ This Message was edited by: HxH on 2013-11-11 17:19 ]
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Posted: 2013-11-11 18:11:55
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On 2013-11-11 18:07:39, goldenface wrote:
I thought it said Z1s.
Z1s is Z1F, btw does anyone know wich time the event in china is?
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Posted: 2013-11-11 18:15:31
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On 2013-11-11 16:51:16, karim128 wrote:
I am fairly certain that Intel will be releasing 14nm next year.. The foundries necessary have already switched over to this node. So yes there are no products yet but we should see them shortly, and we dont know of any other firm that is there yet (we have conjecture about Samsung which i touched on.. but nothing definitive). That is still 2 nodes ahead of Q S800, remember Q hasnt shown anything so we are in the dark from this perspective on how far along they are with a new process.
Do not compare desktop with mobile. New process nodes are first optimized for performance and then for power efficiency so the low-power versions always comes after the desktop
The ARM reference is the A15, Krait falls below this reference point because of what reason? they designed their own chip, based on what ARM had at the time, their goal was to get a family of SoCs to market ASAP for mind.market share, this 'rush' paid off as they are assumed to be the only/best player for mobile SoCs. Again your comparison i dont think particularly suits this discussion.. could just be me however.
Gosh, please don't repeat the same arguments when i've already said they were wrong. There is no reference, everybody is free to either use A15 or desing their own core, and Krait is not based on an early A15, it is a pure Qualcomm design, from scratch, the only thing it shares with A15 is the instruction set, in other words they can execute the same programs. And Krait didn't fall behind, just look at the benchmarks! The octa based S4 is only on par with the S600 based S4 and way behind the S800 based Note 3 (Samsung may cheat, but comparing Samsung's product between them is still a fair comparaison). Whereas, in terms of battery life, Snapdragon is much better ! Just google "Anandtech s800", " It seems like with Snapdragon 800 we may be ushering in a new generation of battery performance, despite the lack of a traditional process node shrink" , "On the CPU performance front, Snapdragon 800's 2.3GHz Krait 400 cores do appear to hold their own quite well against ARM's Cortex A15. In some cases ARM holds the advantage, while in others the higher clocked Krait 400 takes the lead." And that is coming from Anand, one of the first to expose the whole cheating things:
You keep trying to say that NVIDIA had market share, I think they were in one relevant device in the past 3 years... that is not a good example. I tried to share one with OMAP (the SoC family in general) because they had favorable mind.market share NVIDIA was never comparable to that.. they are for all intents irrelevant. TI lost out due to a SoC that would be ripped apart today wrt the original SD 1GHz SoC.. (much how the maligned 5410 was lamented for not being a homogenous 8 core cpu) I will have to re-read but i believe that there was some 'funny business' with how the SoC used its '1GHz' again its been about 5/6 years so Ill have to research that for you.. (this may be dubious, but its sticking in my mind right now for some reason) I could just be thinking that the OMAP at the time was a better SoC..
They were in Surface and Nexus 7. But it's not just about nVidia, even TI had the marketshare and mind-share, now they quit the mobile space, my point is : if Qualcomm is successful today, it's simply because they have the superior products. Marketshare doesn't last if you don't stay competitive.
I think that TI ran into some issues with the OMAP5 design/production, they announced that it would be their last but i thought it made it into some products, if what you say is true, i guess they didnt. so i think they chose to refocus elsewhere.
OMAP5 didn't make it.
Broadwell is a commercial product.. its 14nm itll be here in a few months. Yes not _NOW_ but thats a little nitpicky.. we are discussing minutia though so i understand your sentiment.
Don't compare smartphones with Desktop.
Better is subjective.. Its (S800) an earlier design based around reference data from ARM. Defining it by saying its better than a younger product is difficult for me to agree with because our reference is based around archaic software restrictions. (K3.4 vs anything that can fully support HMP through bigLITTLE, and 64bit instruction which would be K3.10) all things being equal, running 3.10 i doubt that the S800 would be able to keep up.. it may last longer in the day (also extremely relevant in the mobile space, but may not necessarily be the primary focus of this discussion, unless im reading your sentiment incorrectly
My point is, both are equally fast, but Snapdragon is signifcantly more power efficient. Maybe next implementations of big little will be better, but not today, and the kernel will change nothing. However, in theory, they are the way to go in the future, but not in their current implementation, because concept and practice are two different things.
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the new S800 is still v7.. take that as you will.
It is v7 ! But it is not A15-based ! It is completely different from A15!
Thanks, i fear we are going in circles now.. also those of you who dont want to read it feel free to skip past our posts.. no one is being held captive..
you made a statement about 14nm not being in the market i was only providing you a counterpoint. yes desktop is different.. for now but why do you think intel is driving down so far so fast? its at a certain time for them, that they want to hit that inflection point where theres no longer a delineation between the two kinds of processors.. much in the same way that ARM wants the A57/53 in servers..
Honestly!?, By default, the A15 is the reference.. it is THE reference from ARM, this much should be indisputable. A company will license chip designs/instruction sets and ARM can even go so far as to provide the 'blueprint' where companies like Q/Apple will go on their merry way adding whatever they deem necessary for their product. Fairly certain Apple is the farthest away from 'home' so to speak, the Krait cores are still in the family, based on early A15 designs, this is what has been, no matter how much you may want to disagree the Krait's pedigree is directly linked to ARMs A15. It is why they are similar in design philosophy (S800/A15) Again the power of the CPU is locked to the platform it is on. I think this is where we disagree about power. I can look at the benchmarks but if i know where the limitations are, things are not equal. one SoC is being handcuffed by the OS the tests are being performed on. The power optimizations from the octa is a null argument because it is merely hacking lower power cores to compensate it is not as good of a solution as Q, i think we all agree. however the software is not up to par with the HW yet (well it is technically, but google is dragging their knuckles on this one). so if we took the SoCs standalone outside of android the story is vastly different.. if we used a proper build of linux on protoboards from Q and Samsung S800 v 5420 the differences would be greater than your implication. now, am i changing the goalposts.. a bit i suppose, however the implication is that SoCs are similarly powerful is what i take issue with because they arent, and i am failing to illustrate that, and must concede that in this context (how it relates to future devices) they are. but not because the HW is the same, or their potential is the same they have a common delimiter.
Success is a funny thing.. as there are a lot of factors for SoCs. Q has a lot more going for their HW than many other vendors due to their overall integration from other markets that they are also in. the radio integration, the power management not necessarily just the processing performance of the SoC, which we should point to as another part of their success, a wholistic approach to the industry needs.. other vendors do not seem to be able to meet//exceed in a meaningful way. So yes, its not JUST mindshare ill concede that point..
I will compare smartphones with desktops.. that is where this is all heading.. there will be a time, shortly i hope that your portable will have replaced the box on the floor.. whoever does it seamlessly (ie, just walk up to your desk with your mouse/keyboard/monitor and its just on connected to your portable with little/no user interaction with a full blown OS to utilize) first will usher in another 2007 shift... just waiting for people to realize that this is where its headed is difficult. watches are not the future..
The kernel would change a lot, as 3.4 is vastly different than 3.10.. i cant see how this isnt relevant to the SoCs being discussed.
My point that the new S800 being v7 is that the instruction set is v7. v8 will be out in phones early next year.. meaning theres no significant update to the architecture, i think you read into that one a bit more than necessary. i am keenly aware of the mistake i typed last night no need to continue banging that drum.
edit: ARMv8 is already out.. the Apple A7 is using ARMv8-A
@HxH
No. the 5420 has CCI (hardware cache coherency) and HMP, and is fully capable of using all 8 cores (4xA15/4xA7) simultaneously. the 5410 cannot and does not have the HW to do so..
this is _ALL_ really to say that google needs to update android properly, and unshackle hw vendors.. it is my opinion that the 'potential' of these SoCs are not equal, on MANY different fronts. And "power" means different things to different people.
[ This Message was edited by: my ninja on 2013-11-11 18:42 ]
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Posted: 2013-11-11 19:31:58
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XperiaJunkie Posts: > 500
According to PocketLint.com Sony have already confirmed the international version of the Z1f will be called the Z1s and they also say it os heading to UK and US shores but there is no confirmation on release date or price.
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Posted: 2013-11-11 22:17:24
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