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If we were in America we'd have class action lawsuits flying all over the place

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[ This Message was edited by: whentheleveebreaks on 2007-09-21 14:55 ]
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Posted: 2007-09-21 15:51:43
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As I posted on the first page of this thread:

Oftel’s policy on SIM locking
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/stati[....]nsumer/advice/faqs/mobfaq3.htm

Oftel's policy on SIM locking Key points SIM locking is permitted under current EU and Oftel guidelines as mobiles sold are subsidised - therefore it is allowable for the mobile companies to recover the associated cost of subsidising the mobile phones sold.

However, mobiles should be able to be unlocked once the subsidy has been recovered. This should generally be within a year if not before.

Charging for the associated admin costs of unlocking a mobile is acceptable, but customers should not expect to pay more than £30 + VAT Mobile phone companies often lock mobile handsets to their own network to give a better guarantee of recovering the cost of handset subsidies and other customer acquisition costs. The main providers' locking policies are described below. Mobile providers' handset locking policies
(November 2002) Unlock at any time, but only pay the fee if unlock within first year £19.99 Pre-pay & a minority of contract phones
12 months £15 Prepay & a minority of contract phones
Prepay 3 months, contract 1 month £15 Prepay &
Contract phones

Unlock at any time £23.25 Prepay &
Contract phones

Unlock once customer has spent £30 on Virgin Mobile airtime Free Prepay & pay monthly phones Contract customers typically must also pay the outstanding subscriptions for the remaining period of the contract before being unlocked. Oftel investigated SIM locking in 2001-2 and reviewed its policy. Oftel concluded that its concerns could best be met by improvements in customer awareness of locking policies, which has been weak. Oftel has made it clear to mobile operators that it expects customers advice to improve, and has asked mobile providers to show how they will ensure adequate customer awareness of SIM locking restrictions. Oftel advises consumers interested in unlocking their phones to ask their mobile provider about unlocking fees and the minimum locking period. However, if a consumer feels that these details were not made clear at the time of purchase or feels misled in any way when purchasing the mobile, then we would advise that they to talk to their local Trading Standards Department. There are now no specific guidelines relating to the mobile companies' policies, in terms of the length of locking period and the charges for unlocking. Oftel decided that setting particular conditions for SIM locking would be less effective than customer pressure on the mobile companies: properly informed customers can select a provider bearing in mind the importance of locking restrictions to them, rather than Oftel setting


[ This Message was edited by: JoolsG4 on 2007-09-21 14:58 ]
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Posted: 2007-09-21 15:54:46
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Dogmann, I really doubt it is "as simple as that" since if it were someone at o2 would have spotted the problem long ago. I'm with Scorpion, it's pretty obvious that at the point you buy the iphone, neither you nor o2 are obligated to do anything, as neither of you are under contract - not even if they separately issue you with a suitable PAYG sim. Until you sign that contract on Itunes, you have no relationship with o2 whatsoever, so no - I don't believe the law applies, and I think if challenged a court might well decide the same.

You talk indignantly about how customers are paying full price for this "unsubsidised" phone, but of course that isn't the case - Apple are selling the phone to you for as little as £269 only because o2 are paying them an extortionate amount for exclusivity on the device, money which they themselves will be recouping through that £35pm contract (and/or "special" PAYG tariff I suspect). To buy the iphone at £269 and then unlock it is, effectively, saving you money at o2's expense - as you full well know - and that isn't what the law is there to do.
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Posted: 2007-09-21 16:06:48
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its completly apples fault for 'having to be different' purely as they are after making more money from this.

their greed will be there downfall. looks like its about to shoot themselves in the foot here.
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Posted: 2007-09-21 16:14:24
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Well, apparently Nokia (especially, but other mobile manufacturers too) have been trying to get in on receiving a cut of the call and data revenue their products make for years.

So far, until Apple and the iPhone, no mobile manufacturer has succeeded in convincing a network to sign that kind of deal.

Nokia now believes it will be able to get similar deals in the future, now that Apple has managed to get it.

Although I guess it depends on how much a network wants to be the exclusive provider of a particular handset. Presumably, Nokia etc. have not had a product that has impressed the networks enough to consider this kind of revenue sharing deal.
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Posted: 2007-09-21 16:24:23
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that's cause you bypassed the activation process by hacking.. when you activate the account legitiamitely it links them all.. just like a sidekick or blackberry... Providers know your simcard number and it is attached to your imei in the case of apple/blackerry it limits functionality in the phone...
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Posted: 2007-09-21 16:28:04
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HAving looked into this somewhat.

I am emrely going to sum up, what in essence has already been suggested.

The Iphone is bought OUTRIGHT upfront

Therefore you can take a contract or not take one, up to you

If you do, then you just activate it via Itunes and off you go


If not then, you can either
Hack it and activate + unlock like evryone else or
Take the "special PayG sim" and activat and use it that way
If you hack it then you can use any sim, including any current O2 sim.
O2 are NOT Obligated in this case to provide and unlock code

The reason for this is, the phone is not subsidised, and may even have been bought from Apple, O2 have not forced the lock, Apple have. The phone is your own property when you take out the contract, the contract is merely tied to the SIM, it just so happens that the sim is required for FULL functionality, not functionality, just FULL functionality. therefore O2 are not obligated to provide an Unlock code for a phone that was your own independant property BEFORE you signed up for the contract

It appears the business model was more sound than first thought. The same thing that allows you to get a decent price on the handset, is the same thing that allows them to get out of having to provide unlock codes. the fact that the phone is YOUR OWN PROPERTY, before the contract is entered into.

This differs from normal contract handsets, where the handset is subsidised, and is not actually your property until the end of the minimum term.

Hopes this clears it up.


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[ This Message was edited by: seunlock-uk on 2007-09-21 17:01 ]

[ This Message was edited by: seunlock-uk on 2007-09-21 17:02 ]
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Posted: 2007-09-21 18:00:34
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So anyone who walks into an Apple retailer with 269 quid in their mitts can walk out with an iphone no strings attached?, and follow the options outlined above.
Sounds fishy to me, also it makes the device a bargain if thats the case, pity anyone who forked out for one previously IMO.
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Posted: 2007-09-21 18:28:27
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Hi seunlock-uk,

Whilst i understand what you are saying take for example a PAYG handset you buy that and it is your from day one. Yet on contacting the Network that has locked it they have to sell you the unlock code why? Even though it was the device manufacturer that locked it on behalf of the Network in the first place

Also how come any one buying a locked to Network phone even if it has come from a contract customer again on buying and topping up a PAYG Sim you are able to get an a unlock code.?

Also why did they only start doing this once the EU law came into force prior to that they wouldn't.

Apple may be the ones that have locked it to 02 but that is at 02's request. Currently i am in to much pain to make further enquiries but once a little better will try contacting the relevant people to find out who is responsible for it being locked and therefore responsible for unlocking it.

But as all the Device manufacturers only lock their devices on the networks request during the manufacturing process. I still believe it is 02 that have had it locked and therefore 02 that will have to sell you an unlock code. We don't ever have to buy the unlock code from the manufacturer we always buy it from the Network it is locked to and they get the code from the manufacturer.

As pointed out most of this may well be irrelevant as i highly doubt just because it has a newer firmware it won't be hackable to both unlocking and customizing. But for someone like me that would only use the Web and Mail over WiFi it does mean i can get one for just £269 and use a PAYG Sim. Which means no 18month contract or Data charges all it will cost me from 02 is call charges and most of my calls are incoming now any way.


Really only once we get to November 9th and either myself or some one else buys it will we be able to see exactly what can or can't be done.


@JoolsG4

That info from OFCOM is seriously out of date in fact 5 years old so i really don't think that can be held as the way the situation is now as i am sure this EU law is not 5 years old and why things changed only over the last year or so not 5 years ago.

Marc

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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-09-21 18:10 ]
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Posted: 2007-09-21 18:47:17
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PayG phones are still subsidised, or at least that is what the networks say, that is why most networks require a minimum top up with the handset, the get the rest of the cost back for the handset, the subsidised part, back or at least in part, by the required top up.

This is a strange one, and as I say, largely redundant, however still a good point none the less. I find it hard to believe that O2 would pay SOOOO much money to be the only provider, when you can just stroll into an Apple shop and buy one for the same price, then unlock it yourself, which is NOT illegal. So without commiting any crime you can have an Iphone for £269, which i find unbelievably naive on the part of O2, if indeed that is how it pans out.
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Posted: 2007-09-21 19:02:01
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