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Rest in peace, SE...
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Posted: 2002-11-05 02:59:00
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@THANASIS Yeah right! who the hell are you telling me how i feel? .. thats just laughable!!

How did you feel yourself when SE released their T68I.

And to youguys who is saying that alla nokias are the same except their faceplates. .. What a load of bullshit! and you know it!

6100 has a lot more features than 6610 and 7210.
7250 has a camera! BIG difference to the 7210.

All the new Nokias has a colorscreen! is that new or what???

And how can someone compare the camera 7250 to the P800 (wich btw, isnt released yet, or will it ever be?)
The 7250camera should be more compared to the T68 with mca.

In any case, both cameras take crappy pictures .. with the exception that you can actually view a picture on the Nokia due to its far far better screen!..

Like i said.. there is a reason why Nokia is going up and SE is going down!!


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Posted: 2002-11-05 07:22:00
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One thing you forgot Johan is that the 7250's camera only take 128*128 pics, not VGA like the MCA-20
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Posted: 2002-11-05 07:47:00
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@ Knut G

Quote:
Super G:

Glad u are able to post concrete arguments, instead of the "pathetic" namecalling u did earlier, it makes discussions a lot more fun.

Fact nr. 1:Nokia sold 650 000 SYMBIAN handsets in Q3 2002. That includes the communicator, so that means less than that total is 7650. These are the only sales numbers I can find, so unless u dig up some links to actual sales numbers, these are the only official ones.
Link: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t412-s2124352,00.html

Fact nr. 2:High end phones have much higher margins than low end phones. The problem is that development costs are higher, so unless u sell shitloads, high end phones will make u less money. Manufacturing costs are not much higher.

Proof:The Nokia 5110 was the same as the 6110, but without the IR port. If u changed the software and got a new face, a 5110 could become a 6110.

Nokia does NOT sell a lot of high end phones these days, and that is the problem, because their low end phones sales are in trouble. Compare those measly 7650 sales to that of the T68, u will see what I'm talking about. The T68 has excellent margins, and sells shitloads. How do I know it has excellent margins?

Proof:The T300 is the same phone(without bluetooth) and sells for half the price. T300 is the new killer phone in the "youth market" and Nokia has nothing to compete with it.

Nokia understood SMS and customization, and they made it big on that, but after that, they haven't understood a thing. I can't even fathom why u speak so highly of a company that has so little innovation.

They were almost last to produce a small factor colour GSM phone
They were almost last to introduce MMS into their handsets
They followed SE's 2 year old attachable camera approach
They have innovated nothing in using camera with MMS, again following SE's lead.
They were almost last to produce a functioning Bluetooth phone
They innovated customization of the phone, only to not develop it further since the 6110.
They were last to the market with a Bluetooth headset
etc....

Do u seriously mean they are a innovative company?

-Knut


Fact Nr.1: Anssi Vanjoki told in the webcast today 1million 7650 phones had been sold. Contrarily to my earlier statement of 3 million by year end, I misunderstood during the webcast, it is 2 millions by year end.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/021104/tech_nokia_imaging_2.html
http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/021104/tech_nokia_7650_1.html

Fact Nr.2: The margins on low end phones are higher than on high end phones. It's very easy to assess: low-end phones are cheap and easy to build (and no matter what, these will sell at a comfortable price for the manufacturer), while high-ends are expensive and difficult to build (look at P800 for instance, it's taking them ages to make it work...). This weighted with the amount of low-end phones makes a clear outcome. This is why if SE wants to stay afloat they cannot concentrate on high-end phones (like P800, T68 is a mid-end) but must look at the low end market. Their latest product releases indicate they're going that way, yet it will be very tough for them. Others like Samsung are focusing on mid-end / high-end phones which is a dangerous approach.

"They were almost last to produce a small factor colour GSM phone:"
what do you mean by almost last? Do you think Ericsson was first?? Wrong. It's a Taiwanese manufacturer that released a color (proper color) phone first.

"They were almost last to introduce MMS into their handsets"
Once again, I don't see your point. 3510 was released early this year. 7650 slightly after. It's not T68i that will make MMS fly. Yes, they had the first product, but it doesn't help... Nokia had the first WAP phone, do you think it helped?

"They followed SE's 2 year old attachable camera approach"
Good move on that! Yet MCA2x concept is better in my mind.
But Nokia did better: they INTEGRATED it in the phone.
Nokia also integrated an FM radio in their phones. Nobody else's been able to do that. SE is now releasing an attachable FM radio

"They have innovated nothing in using camera with MMS, again following SE's lead."

SE's lead??? In what? J-phone's had sha-mail long before SE got its MCA to its T68.
Let me point out at least one innovation from Nokia on this: they have a new camera stand.

"They were almost last to produce a functioning Bluetooth phone"
Again I fail to see what you mean with almost last...
I personally don't care about Bluetooth given the maturity of the market, and what one can do with it. I'm very happy with IrDA.

"They innovated customization of the phone, only to not develop it further since the 6110."
Nokia's had the communicator for ages. SE still don't have it... P800 is still a wet dream. Nobody else have it.
Nokia has had the D211 with WLAN, HSCSD, GPRS for quite some time now.
Nokia's unveiled 6650, first dual mode GSM/WCDMA phone. Where is SE???? Nobody knows.
Nokia's been the first with integrated camera in GSM phones (They had it for J-phone earlier)
Nokia's had the first GAIT phone.
Nokia created market segments for mobile phones.
Do you want more?

"They were last to the market with a Bluetooth headset."
Right. And what a big deal There are so many Bluetooth headsets sold. The price is still prohibitive.



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Posted: 2002-11-05 08:46:00
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@ Super G word!
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Posted: 2002-11-05 09:30:00
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Quote:
On 2002-11-05 07:47, captainsm wrote:
One thing you forgot Johan is that the 7250's camera only take 128*128 pics, not VGA like the MCA-20


What I know, 7250 has CIF camera inside and CIF resolution in pixels is 352x288. The display (128x128) resolution is different that the resolution in camera.
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Posted: 2002-11-05 09:42:00
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Super G:

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Anssi Vanjoki told in the webcast today 1million 7650 phones had been sold. Contrarily to my earlier statement of 3 million by year end, I misunderstood during the webcast, it is 2 millions by year end.
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So Nokia said it has SHIPPED 1 million, good for them. That doesnt equate to sold you know. And if they shipped 1 million now, they are going to sell 2 million by years end? Its only a month left. You need to remember it is Nokia saying this.

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Fact Nr.2: The margins on low end phones are higher than on high end phones. It's very easy to assess: low-end phones
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You have no idea what you are talking about. I seldom use this argument since its rather arrogant, but you seem to be too thickheaded for anything else to work. There is no way in hell you can prove that low end phones have higher margins than high end phones. If you read my post, and the relations between 5110/6110, T68/T300, you will see that the high end phones was/is the same as the low end phones, but the low end phones are half the price. Which means the MANUFACTURING costs are equally low, which means the profit MARGINS are higher on T68 or was on 6110. Proof good enough?

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Do you think Ericsson was first?? Wrong. It's a Taiwanese manufacturer that released a color
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Do I care what a Tawainese manufacturer did? I'm talking about a Colour GSM phone I could buy here in Europe. My point stands. Nokia sure had to hurry after T68 was launched.

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"They were almost last to introduce MMS into their handsets"
Once again, I don't see your point. 3510 was released early this year. 7650 slightly after.
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I was counterdicting your statement about Nokia being innovative. Thanks for confirming my point. 3510 was not an MMS phone though. It removed the sound, made the pictures black/white, and doesnt support animations. Think about it. LOL

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Good move on that! Yet MCA2x concept is better in my mind.
But Nokia did better: they INTEGRATED it in the phone.
Nokia also integrated an FM radio in their phones. Nobody else's been able to do that. SE is now releasing an attachable FM radio
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They integrated it on the 7650 and the three other models they have that are the same phone. The new camera attaches with a cord, and you are unable to use the phone as viewfinder.

As for the radio, thats true, guess there is one innovation. Ericsson did release an addon radio clip 4-5 years ago though, in case u wonder. Wonder where Nokia got the idea..........

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Again I fail to see what you mean with almost last...
I personally don't care about Bluetooth given the maturity of the market, and what one can do with it. I'm very happy with IrDA.
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Bluetooth is the heir to IRDA, and to say it isnt important is a little feeble. I use it a lot, not for handset, but for connections to my computer. The greatest use is with laptops, where you can keep the phone in your pocked, and drop the pesky wires or balancing the phone in front of the IRDA port. But my point again was to dispel the notion that Nokia is such an innovative company. They are not. End of story.

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Nokia's unveiled 6650, first dual mode GSM/WCDMA phone. Where is SE???? Nobody knows.
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LOL. You are kidding right? Have you looked at this phone? The only reason they released this phone, is that they wanted press attention badly. This is not going to be a phone released to the market. It is for network testing. SE/Motorola/Siemens/godknowswho has 3G phones for testing with networks. Only Nokia has the state of mind to "release" the damn thing. Smart of them, but uninteresting. They are good at marketing though, and that shows.


All of this is quite meaningless though. My reply to you, had a few important points.

1. Manufacturing costs
There is no more discussing this. My point above stands.

2.Nokia is not an innovative company
Neither is SE for that matter, but they are getting close with the P800.
You obviously agree with me on this one, since your replies mostly covered WHY they werent first or innovative. The few points u had does NOT make it one.

3.Nokia sells fewer High end handsets than they would like/have prospected. I have no proof of this, but I think Nokia's current actions show a company that is confused about the market.

And a last note(sorry for long post).


-Knut



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Posted: 2002-11-05 12:06:00
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Woo.... That was long.... But GOOD :-o This post was posted from a R520
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Posted: 2002-11-05 12:29:00
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for me p800 still d best!
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Posted: 2002-11-05 12:37:00
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I needed th loo halfway through that but i stuck with it and made it OK. We think Nokia are releasing phones like mad but a world market can easily stand it.We dont notice it with say car manufacturers who have different products world wide, I am AMAZED at the lack of line up from what was TWO large phone companies, ......also not sure i WANT a BIG phone next.
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Posted: 2002-11-05 12:40:00
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