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On 2005-08-01 14:38:48, 02 wrote:
@gelfen
Bein wholesome, moral, honest, loving and charitable are too part of Islam!
i know that!
what i meant was, what if a non-muslim conformed to all the requirements of being a good muslim except for following islam? i offered those examples as discussion points. also, what about a person who lived their entire life in ignorance of islam? admittedly that would be harder now, but still possible. i for one have learned more about islam in this thread than in my entire life beforehand.
Quote:A person who is born non-Islam and converted to Islam is much much more lucky, than a person born Islam.. this is because they taken the harder path to Islam.. and they worked and believe with their hearts as they realises the truft... the day they converted Islam is the day they reborn to a new.. like a baby.. and the sins done b4 will be forgiven.. However! One converts because of Allah... Not because of the forgiven sins, family, friends, money, ur future wife/hubby is an Islam so u converted Islam... etc...it doesnt work that way.
Its from the heart...
this is exactly the same in christian faith. as far as i can see, the only substantive difference between islam and christianity does not relate to god, but to the number and relative importance of his earthly (human) representatives.
i think that if a muslim were to convert it would most likely be to marry a non-muslim, or to join a non-monotheistic religion (e.g. buddhism, taoism) or even to become agnostic or atheist.
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Posted: 2005-08-02 02:06:10
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@gelfen
Which religious path do you follow?
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Posted: 2005-08-02 02:07:55
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@gelfen, I'd assume it would be impossible to follow all the rules of Islam without being a Muslim.
Mainly because there are some things taught or required that a normal person wouldn't necessarily do.
E.g. pay tax to the poor.
But lets assume he does everything that God asks, because he wants to or thought of it on his own. Wouldn't said person have searched for the religion that suited his beliefs? Lets say he did but didn't want to be labelled, thats fine as long as he still believes in God. But he's still going to be missing one crucial thing, he wont be able to answer Judgement days questions. E.g. Who do you believe is the last messenger of God, and he will not have a Quraan in his hand to pass on to be judged whether he can go into heaven or hell.
As I believe, that person will ultimately go into heaven, IF he did the right things BUT did not fully understand the religion of Islam.
If that person did, and still refused it however, then it could be that his time will be spent in hell but I'm not sure of this.
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Posted: 2005-08-02 02:24:56
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@amnesia
A non-Muslim can give to the poor.
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Posted: 2005-08-02 03:42:34
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that's pretty much where i was going. even if you don't donate to charity you still give to the poor because you pay tax to the government, of which a portion will go to unemployment, pension and disability (etc.) benefits for those who can't afford to live without assistance. i suppose it would depend on whether you were thinking about that at the time or whether you merely write them off as "dole bludgers".
i guess if god/allah is meant to forgive all your sins then wouldn't s/he logically forgive the sin of not believing in him/her? otherwise the distinction becomes rather arbitrary unless even after death the individual still remains unrepentant. i suppose what i'm getting at is that i couldn't believe in a god who would so arbitrarily punish a person because of their ignorance.
@scots: i'm nominally a protestant christian, but my personal philosophy is much more complicated than that. i believe in god, but i'm open to convincing on what the exact nature of god is - be it either as the traditional all powerful single being or the manifestation of a "conscious" universe.
i personally believe that the true nature of god is unknown and unknowable to humankind, at least in this particular incarnation/dimension/reality/insert idiom of choice here. as a consequence nearly all religious teaching is a flawed human interpretation of divine concept, which while probably mostly correct is also swayed by the politics and prejudices of both the author(s), their contemporary culture, and the teachers of that faith. i think that almost without exception the various "prophets" had a better personal understanding of what was going on, but that their ability to explain it was limited by the lesser understanding of their audience and those who wrote down their teachings.
i am also not convinced that any one religion is right to the exclusion of all others, since they are almost all a human attempt to understand the greater order of things - and an outlet for the human need to believe in something greater than ourselves. christianity, islam and judaism are manifestations of that reach for understanding which happen to be similar, since they more or less evolved out of each other. however, i see no reason why other religions can't be equally valid in that respect. for instance, depending on your definition, it could be argued that "the tao" and "god" are one and the same, or merely aspects of the one over-reaching "force", but that the conceptualisation of "the tao" was more appropriate to the cultural development of the target audience. while the former three use a big stick approach to enforce a moral code, it seems that taoism employs a minimalist action philosophy which achieves a similar outcome, since to do evil logically requires more effort than to do good (i also make a distinction between doing good and combating evil). additionally, there are studies which indicate that for devout followers of a particular faith prayer can correspond to a state of meditation, which is more often associated with eastern religions.
i also believe that acceptance and understanding of many religions allows one to acknowledge the many aspects of god, even if you never get a complete picture. the concept of "god" is too big to define in words, so multiple viewpoints are needed to add to your understanding.
"...to get back to the roots of all...religions, past the doctrines to the core of each belief system to find out what they have in common; and they have alot more in common than you think. It's just when politics and money and nationalism get in the way that things get a little messed up.
(if you can spot where that quote comes from then you really are a geek
)
and that is a kind of outline, but doesn't really cover half of it
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Posted: 2005-08-02 05:17:34
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@gelfen - well said (if a little long!
), and I especially like the quote at the end - no idea who said it though!
Any chance of satisfying my curiosity?
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Posted: 2005-08-02 10:33:15
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@sammy: pm'd you. want to give the others a chance.
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Posted: 2005-08-02 10:36:56
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@scotsboy, you're missing the point, he would give to the poor, but not 15% of his salary every few months as a tax to the poor.
I'm saying he couldn't follow that main rule if he was not a Muslim.
@gelfen, paying tax to the government that eventually goes to the poor is not the same. Firstly it is forced out of you, and secondly not all governments even give to the poor.
You have to do it out of your heart.
plus dont focus on just one thing that I've said, remember this is an example and my main point was that it would be impossible to be a person who does 'everything' a good Muslim should do.
One point you still missed out on, is in Judgement day you'd have to answer who you believe in and who is the last messenger.
(you can't lie)
_________________
Oxygen Inc|
Oxygen Mobile[ This Message was edited by: amnesia on 2005-08-02 10:54 ]
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Posted: 2005-08-02 11:51:21
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I guess my answer to who I believe in would be no-one... therefore condemning me to hell, regardless of how good or bad I have otherwise lead my life for a long time by the sound of things.... not that I believe in 'heaven' and 'hell'.....
But I remember someone's signature on Esato (hasn't posted for a while, can't remember who!) saying something like 'maybe this is another planet's hell' - I think it was Aldous Huxley (sp?) that said it.
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Posted: 2005-08-02 11:58:36
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exactly, so from your point of view, if you dont believe in heaven or hell, you have nothing to worry about.
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Posted: 2005-08-02 12:23:22
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