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On 2013-09-28 12:29:21, cu015170 wrote:
"The 1020 only struggled in our night shot. We took 30 shots with the Nokia but the shutter speed in such a dark environment was just too slow to get even a single 100% sharp image. In those situations we recommend upping the ISO manually in order to achieve a faster shutter speed. As we've already pointed out in our full review, the Nokia's performance can occasionally feel a little sluggish."
Hm, I wonder what would happen if you put it on a tripod.. is it still going to go as slow as 1/9th ? I think 1/20th or even 1/30th with higher ISO should be fine.
That's why the manual mode on the 1020 is huge! I can't but wonder why the reviewer didn't take that photo in manual mode as he hinted and showed it on the page.
One could pick whatever SS and ISO in little steps!
To me this is a huge advantage over the 808 btw.
[i]The Sony Xperia Z1 also offers very high resolution results, but suffers from noise and artifacts at
all ISO settings.[/i]
Right, I am not sure why that is tho.. even at 50iso.. and I am puzzled by these small white specks in some images..
What is that ?
These are mainly sharpening artifacts.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2013-09-28 13:54 ]
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Posted: 2013-09-28 14:53:41
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^ I though they were but why are they white.. I don't think I've seen that kind before
You can manually select iso speed on the 808 as well. The only thing you can't control is the shutter speed.. at least not directly.
If you wanted fast.. high ISO + Flash
If you want slow... low ISO + ND filter on
[ This Message was edited by: cu015170 on 2013-09-28 16:50 ]
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Posted: 2013-09-28 17:49:51
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I don't understand one thing : with the Galaxy s2/3/4 when i choose ISO 100 i have dark pics but fast speed because limited blur shake, with my ex 808 in low ISO the shutter speed was long and very bright pics but in this case i got quickly blur shake.
I mean in low light conditions.
Sorry for my english.
[ This Message was edited by: davidsic on 2013-09-28 17:11 ]
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Posted: 2013-09-28 18:10:37
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Well, first thing that happens when one sharpens, is getting all those black dots all over the Z1 samples. Which are easily mistaken for sensor luminance noise.
Then apply even more sharpening, and couple that with an extreme contrast boost, and one gets all sort of stuff!
Most of all is introducing chromatic noise.
Then one has to start cancelling the chromatic noise getting those white stuff and address the black points by reducing luminance noise and losing detail.
The end result is a complete mess. Overprocessed images.
Sony always did that.
I used to own and favor SE products mainly because of Xenon flash and some useful integrated features which others didn't have at the time.
When they dropped Xenon, post the Satio which was my last SE phone, I never looked back.
What remained is good auto mode (where others have picked up much ground lately; not just in the cameraphones department but point and shoots as well) and the mess they do by overprocessing. Even with the Z1!
They do it all over their point and shoot line-up. Which used please some people, especially the American market, and they even apply this approach to their Nex and Alpha prosumer and professional line-ups but within acceptable margins avoiding any cartoonish results.
As to the 808, I know its menu very well.
But as far as I remember it doesn't have the same ISO range as of the 1020 and also can't be set in same small steps.
And choosing SS with tiny steps makes a huge difference.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2013-09-28 17:30 ]
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Posted: 2013-09-28 18:28:05
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On 2013-09-28 18:10:37, davidsic wrote:
I don't understand one thing : with the Galaxy s2/3/4 when i choose ISO 100 i have dark pics but fast speed because limited blur shake, with my ex 808 in low ISO the shutter speed was long and very bright pics but in this case i got quickly blur shake.
I mean in low light conditions.
Sorry for my english.
[ This Message was edited by: davidsic on 2013-09-28 17:11 ]
In low light conditions at base ISO,
fast shutter speed: dark but no blur
slow shutter speed: bright but blurry
Nothing mysterious here. But is that the point you were hinting at?
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Posted: 2013-09-28 18:36:53
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On 2013-09-28 18:10:37, davidsic wrote:
I don't understand one thing : with the Galaxy s2/3/4 when i choose ISO 100 i have dark pics but fast speed because limited blur shake, with my ex 808 in low ISO the shutter speed was long and very bright pics but in this case i got quickly blur shake.
I mean in low light conditions.
Sorry for my english.
[ This Message was edited by: davidsic on 2013-09-28 17:11 ]
Your English is fine
I don't know why your Sammy is doing that, a lower ISO should trigger a longer shutter speeds since the sensor will need more light, so the shutter will stay open for longer. This is why your 808 does what it does..
As far as blur shake, without OIS.. you need to keep the shutter speed around 1/20th to 1/30th with steady hands if you don't want blur. Otherwise you need support..
On 2013-09-28 18:28:05, false_morel wrote:
Well, first thing that happens when one sharpens, is getting all those black dots all over the Z1 samples. Which are easily mistaken for sensor luminance noise.
Then apply even more sharpening, and couple that with an extreme contrast boost, and one gets all sort of stuff!
Most of all is introducing chromatic noise.
Then one has to start cancelling the chromatic noise getting those white stuff and address the black points by reducing luminance noise and losing detail.
The end result is a complete mess. Overprocessed images.
Sony always did that.
I used to own and favor SE products mainly because of Xenon flash and some useful integrated features which others didn't have at the time.
When they dropped Xenon, post the Satio which was my last SE phone, I never looked back.
What remained is good auto mode (where others have picked up much ground lately; not just in the cameraphones department but point and shoots as well) and the mess they do by overprocessing. Even with the Z1!
They do it all over their point and shoot line-up. Which used please some people, especially the American market, and they even apply this approach to their Nex and Alpha prosumer and professional line-ups but within acceptable margins avoiding any cartoonish results.
As to the 808, I know its menu very well.
But as far as I remember it doesn't have the same ISO range as of the 1020 and also can't be set in same small steps.
And choosing SS with tiny steps makes a huge difference.
[ This Message was edited by: false_morel on 2013-09-28 17:30 ]
The raw result form the sensor is very important. If you have good material to work with it much easier to apply less processing, which is what Nokia did with the N8 and the 808 since the sensor produced good results to begin with. When you have image data coming from the sensor which isn't all that good, then you start doing what you described and its a never ending circle.. you fix one thing, another shows up.. so you have to find the right compromise.
In Sony's case with the Z1 I don't think that they've found that balance yet.
The ISO range on the 1020 is wider in the upper end, but it doesn't go as low as the 808 ..
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Posted: 2013-09-28 18:39:42
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Lumia 1020 extensively compared to compact Canon PowerShot G12 and SLR Nikon D90.
http://www.nokiapoweruser.com[....]wershot-g12-and-slr-nikon-d90/
in certain conditions, maybe..
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Posted: 2013-09-28 21:26:30
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In all the images D90 and higher in most images G12 was superior, particularly with regard to noise and white balance !
Nokia needs to urgently upgrade the software of this camera !
Is unacceptable a cameraphone one with image sensor so great and good optical, presents deficiencies such huge !
PS: If you do better than the Razr I is not merit but must !!!
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Posted: 2013-09-28 21:55:14
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On 2013-09-28 18:39:42, cu015170 wrote:
I don't know why your Sammy is doing that, a lower ISO should trigger a longer shutter speeds since the sensor will need more light, so the shutter will stay open for longer. This is why your 808 does what it does..
As far as blur shake, without OIS.. you need to keep the shutter speed around 1/20th to 1/30th with steady hands if you don't want blur. Otherwise you need support..
If the intended question was why each phone was performing differently, if anything, I prefer the Galaxy approach to the blurry 808 output!
What use is photo if it's all blurry with hand shake?!
I think it's reasonable that Samsung restricts the Galaxy from going to slow SS even if the photo is underexposed.
The raw result form the sensor is very important. If you have good material to work with it much easier to apply less processing, which is what Nokia did with the N8 and the 808 since the sensor produced good results to begin with. When you have image data coming from the sensor which isn't all that good, then you start doing what you described and its a never ending circle.. you fix one thing, another shows up.. so you have to find the right compromise.
In Sony's case with the Z1 I don't think that they've found that balance yet.
Well the issue with Sony is that they are doing this on purpose. They think this approach delivers better results for the average Joe who will end up sharing the smartphone photos on social networks.
They don't think they are overdoing nor that they don't have the right balance!
And one could argue they do have a point, in case the cameraphone is not to be used as a primary camera for printing and archiving event photos.
But if the cameraphones are eventually to evolve into primary cameras replacing point and shoots Sony need to rethink their approach.
As it stands now, their phones are never meant for photography enthusiasts!
I would pick up a Galaxy any time over an Xperia if I shoot photos with.
The ISO range on the 1020 is wider in the upper end, but it doesn't go as low as the 808 ..
But can one pick the 50 ISO manually or only by setting the ND filter?
And how large are the ISO steps? As far as I remember there are four values to pick from.
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Posted: 2013-09-29 02:31:48
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Nice idea for a comparison. They wanted to test whether the Lumia has lead the cameraphones into a new field replacing the compacts and even competing with consumer DSLRs..
But again, they ended up with too little photos, always in auto, testing only the full resolution photos zoomed out.
I don't get it really!
I understand that people may not avoid long comparison articles, but anyone interested in such articles in the first place, would definitely be glad to see as many photos and as many camera perimeters tested!
Take the fuss to go shoot out with four cameras and come back with a couple of photos.
At least they could have shot more and in different modes with manual controls and just provided them in a link for those interested to examine them on their own.
Anyway, even if the D90 is a consumer mid-range DSLR, it is not meant to be used in auto mode all the time. Not even half the time! Auto mode on this camera for those shots when one has to shoot turn it on and shoot quickly in a standard lit situation.. When one is obliged to just point and shoot as quick as possible for a certain reason.
This point alone makes the comparison a bit irrelevant.
Also they used the 18-105 mm kit lens, and also at its widest focal length where it doesn't necessarily delivers its best performance! It makes sense to use same focal length to the phones for ease of comparisons, but they could have got then a better wide angle lens which would have made a lot of difference.
As to the Canon, same could be said to a certain extent. It's a bridge camera and a prosumer product not for amateurs actually. So G12 owners would not leave it on auto either.
Then we come to the biggest point, owning a DSLR or a bigger camera in general is never about photo quality as the core purpose! Many people miss on this point.
At many scenarios, compacts deliver good enough results compared to even high-end professional 6000$ DSLRS when it comes to pure image quality.
It's other features one pays for: consistent fast autofocusing for sports and action photography with high FPS, professional portrait with quality bokeh, battery life, reliability and life cycle (number of average shutter, weather sealing), ergonomics, with DSLRs of course specialty lenses for best results and in some cases only specialty lenses would do (tele lenses, primes), buffers, memory, flash (bounce flash, diffusers), etc..
So it's not just about noise and sensor size and WB on auto mode and sharpness out of the camera..
Back to the comparison, I think the 1020 did really well. The details captured in the full resolution mode are a welcome feature to the cameraphone world. But those photos are either meant to be cropped to certain area later, or supersampled through the phone to 5 MP output.
In case of later lossless zooming, the quality is very good considering no other consumer device offer such a feature in the market at all! And it is really useful in many situations.
We know how good the 5MP photos are but would have been much smarter to include those in the comparison as well.
Overall, what Nokia achieved with their PureView technology through the 808 and 1020 is really outstanding, innovative, and revolutionary in the photography world. No question about it.
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Posted: 2013-09-29 02:56:47
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