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On 2002-04-11 11:40, pogie wrote:
i am not from israel, never been there.... but i am a citizen of this world. the only thing that i want is to end the war there. i am in no position to say or express my opinion, but for the sake of the innocent, let us stop fighting
believe me, that's all anyone here in israel wants. we were ready to give the palestinians essentially everything they were asking for at camp david, and all we asked for in return was peace, a cessation of terrorist attacks, and normal relations. it doesn't seem too much to ask for, does it? and yet, they refused--all we got in return was more terror and bloodshed... what are we to do????
[ This Message was edited by: calvin0927 on 2002-04-11 13:11 ]
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Posted: 2002-04-11 13:10:00
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On 2002-04-11 13:10, calvin0927 wrote:
believe me, that's all anyone here in israel wants. we were ready to give the palestinians essentially everything they were asking for at camp david, and all we asked for in return was peace, a cessation of terrorist attacks, and normal relations. it doesn't seem too much to ask for, does it? and yet, they refused--all we got in return was more terror and bloodshed... what are we to do????
Sonce the 'intifada' started how many Palestinians and how many Israeli's have died?
Were all the Palestinians killed 'terrorists' ?
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Posted: 2002-04-11 13:33:00
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On 2002-04-11 13:33, nyk_2702 wrote:
Sonce the 'intifada' started how many Palestinians and how many Israeli's have died?
Were all the Palestinians killed 'terrorists' ?
many have died on each side--i know it's around 500 israelis, and even more palestinians. and no, not all the palestinians killed were terrorists. however, on the israeli side, ALL were innocent civilians. the difference is that the palestinians specifically target innocent civilians, whereas israel targets those terrorists that kill innocent israelis. unfortunately, sometimes civilians get hurt also (during the US bombing of afghanistan, the UN reported that THOUSANDS of innocent civilians were killed...). the other difference is that when palestinian civilians are killed, israel always regrets this and people are actually saddened by such news in israel, whereas when palestinians hear that there was a suicide bombing that killed innocent israeli civilians, they go out into the streets to rejoice (as they did also after september 11).
interesting that you didn't answer any of my points in the previous post, concerning arafat etc.
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Posted: 2002-04-11 13:53:00
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Hello everyone, This discussion has been really educational to me, I especially loved the part where Allexdos says:
“The Israelis deserve israel, they earned their state and it doesnt matter how they achieved it!”
Yes The end justifies the means, if someday someone’s land is taken from them their farms are turned into settlements By peaceful Israeli’s with their peaceful Bulldozers in their peaceful ways he shouldn’t act in the desperate way he does, he should go and make something out of himself, with what?????? U need to be somewhere and have something to do something with it.
Indeed the blacks were animals too when they asked for their freedom, and the Indians were animals when they fought for their freedom against the great empire, and since when are the acts of the US our guideline???? If they decided to destroy Afghanistan to reach to their precious oil in what used to be Russian states, does that mean everyone should do the same??? If it was only $3 Billion or the weapons or the Vito in every other occasion, what the hick r u people thinking of????
Yes they should buy a T68 no ,no, no better a T68i, who the hell gives a damn about a phone when u r not sure if will live till tomorrow.
Yes the poor Israelis r terrified, and to protect themselves they need to kill a few innocent civilians, well the Palestinians have been living in refugee camps since 1948 in conditions I hate to see my worst enemy in, who cared about them before they started fighting back, what do u guys suggest? Face to face combat with the Israeli tanks, or the Israeli army???? Who r u kidding?? There wasn’t a Palestine before 1960??? Where do u get your Info from??? It’s like saying there wasn’t red Indians before the English settlers named them!!!!!
NO my fellow humans (I’m addressing only humans not animals here) every human has the right to fight oppression, and injustice wherever it existed and in any form it may take, yes all the Arabs are envious of the great israeli state, they r so selfish they only think of what’s in the other’s hand, what a retched race!!!!!!! Wake up people your charade is up, u r no longer looked upon as an innocent state fighting for its existence u r the aggressor and u will not kill the strive for freedom, even if u end up killing all the Palestinians, others will come and u will live in fear each and every moment in your life because u know u r doing something wrong and living a lie to an extent that u have believed it!!!!!!!!
How long will it take 100 years a 1000 years nothing lasts forever and the day will come when the world is not a forest where the strong eat the weak and humanity will understand that we have to accept each other whether we like it or not. And the only animals around are those who believe they r surrounded by animals coz they looking upon their reflection…………………………
May peace come on those who make peace
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Posted: 2002-04-11 14:39:00
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Where does Israel get its Bullets and tanks from? USA
If Israel wasn't supported by the USA, then it wouldn't exist..
Israel's economy would be non-existent if the USA didn't support them..
About ur points with arafat..
Y did Israel enter Lebanon again?
If it was to only get Arafat then why did it stay there for 20 years?
ohh and ur point about the UN condemning Hizbollah for attackiing Israel...
Hizbollah leader Hasan Naser-Allah has said that as long as Israel continues its Occupation, they will continue striking..
Arafat mite be a criminal but he is just as big a criminal as Sharon..
Sharon was convicted in Belgium.. He is guilty...
Go look it up and you will see..
ohh and one more point..
When has the Israeli government EVER apologised for their killings of Palestinian civilians... Never..
Wat channel do u watch? Dreamers TV ?
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Posted: 2002-04-11 15:56:00
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Yes U may have won each and every war u fought against the Arabs, and I guess that’s y u r facing a problem in accepting the fact that the israeli army had to withdraw its goons out of south of Lebanon because it could not withstand the losses resulting from the attacks by Hizb Allah, attacks against soldiers, and army posts, or will u claim that they were killing innocent civilians too!!!!!!!
But to tell u the truth Calvin I’m impressed with all the reading u r doing on the Lebanese war, and the massacres done by Arafat, but remember that your story telling is for adults this time who can think back and reply. U forgot to mention the “black Sabat” that came before the massacre of Ihdin when the Lebanese forces went down to the harbor and butchered every Muslim they got their hands on, oooh they were only a couple of hundreds !!!!!!! Wow what a mistake, or the Israeli forces that were guarding the same people when they did the Sabra & chatila massacre, 35 woman and children, and Syrians and Libyans… U r good man, I have to admit it, I love the way u turn facts around, and the way u insert those facts between most of the delusions u r repeating in this forum, If I didn’t live ½ what u r talking about I would have believed u, U may have read about what u r talking about and repeating like a parrot when it was spoon fed to u as u were growing up in your school that was built on what used to be some animal Palestinian home, who was abusing the poor Israeli slaves he had tide in his backyard. Wake up calvin If NYK is angry in his discussion it’s because he’s had enough of your PROPAGANDA, Public pressure to withdraw from South of Lebanon because for once u r losing more soldiers than the civilians u r killing, and stop inventing stories about the Palestinians only targeting civilians, they r targeting Your peaceful soldiers.
and every Palestinian lost a family member, or a piece of land, u want brutality: shooting at children protesting is that your definition of self defense!!!!!!! What happened in Qana (South of Lebanon) when the Peace loving zionists bombarded a shelter with 400 women and children, every one saw the poor guy running around with the bodies or what remained of his 3 children talking to himself asking himself what they did to be born in this land??? And this is the loss of one family, the lovely beaches of Tel Aviv used to be Palestinian beaches, but I guess that doesn’t matter now coz Poor Cal can’t sleep because of the terrors of those Animals…OOOps I mean Palestinians. This only tells what kind of a human u r Cal.
I loved the analogy where an Alien is looking upon this planet, If I was this Alien I’ll do what most of the nations done to this conflict, turn my back and run as fast as I can coz this is something to settle between the Peaceful Occupation forces of Zionism and those terrorist Palistinians……
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Posted: 2002-04-11 16:01:00
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You know, both sides actually bring up some really good interesting points about this situation...
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Posted: 2002-04-11 21:04:00
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this is the very reason why palestinians and israelis are fighting, their people can't get along. if only people would settle their differences... it is not how many fight or wars you have won, nor how rich your goverment is. it is not how influential or how crutial your country to the survival of others. it is, and i firmly believe, how a goverment, if not its people get along with others. how one can tolerate, understand and if possible nurture others. it is by helping others, creating life, not destroying it will one find his true self. be brave enough to accept your mistakes, embrace it so you can learn from it. if one do not acknowledge his mistakes, one can not learn from it. pride is a very dangerous and stuborn ally. you might want to live a couple of days without it. selflessness is a virtue one should learn.
[ This Message was edited by: pogie on 2002-04-12 07:30 ]
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Posted: 2002-04-12 07:20:00
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whats wrong with the saudi peace plan???
where israel withdraws from the land it invaded and sets uyp a palestinian state ..in return they get peace and recognition ...(i doubt the palestinians will totally stop attacks but would greatly reduce it better than whats happenin now )
here in the uk we also have terrorist (ira) but everytime they bomb one of our cities the british army doesnt go out with f16 and ginships/tanks!!!!
israel has been doing that but to no avail!!
rather we have gone into negotiations.......the ira are disarming and we are very close to peace.
the israelis say barak had a peace plan but the view here is that how can u have a state wich has bits of israel dotted all over its land..and a lot of restictions attached to the plan aswell.!!!!
Israel is being veiwes by many (rigthtly or wrongly)as causing the same atrocities as naziz did to them...
this is all based on my i admit not thorough analysis of views here in the uk....dont intend to offend anone ..
peace
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Posted: 2002-04-12 10:20:00
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This Article caught my Eye on the Internet..
I thought its quite interesting.......
I am Israel
The Daily - Washington State University, February 25, 2002
I am Israel - I came to a land without a people for a people without a land. Those people who happened to be here, had no right to be here, and my people showed them they had to leave or die, razing 480 Palestinian villages to the ground, erasing their history.
I am Israel - some of my people committed massacres and later became Prime Ministers to represent me. In 1948, Menachem Begin was in charge of the unit that slaughtered the inhabitants of Deir Yassin, including 100 men, women, and children. In 1953, Ariel Sharon led the slaughter of the inhabitants of Qibya, and in 1982 arranged for our allies to butcher around 2,000 in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla.
I am Israel - carved in 1948 out of 78% of the land of Palestine, dispossessing its inhabitants and replacing them with Jews from Europe and other parts of the world. While the natives whose families lived on this land for thousands of years are not allowed to return, Jews from all over the world are welcome to instant citizenship.
I am Israel - in 1967, I swallowed the remaining lands of Palestine - the West Bank and Gaza - and placed their inhabitants under an oppressive military rule, controlling and humiliating every aspect of their daily lives. Eventually, they should get the message that they are not welcome to stay, and join the millions of Palestinian refugees in the shanty camps of Lebanon and Jordan.
I am Israel - I have the power to control American policy. My American Israel Public Affairs Committee can make or break any politician of its choosing, and as you see, they all compete to please me. All the forces of the world are powerless against me, including the UN as I have the American veto to block any condemnation of my war crimes. As Sharon so eloquently phrased it, "We control America".
I am Israel - I influence American mainstream media too, and you will always find the news tailored to my favor. I have invested millions of dollars into PR representation, and CNN, New York Times, and others have been doing an excellent job of promoting my propaganda. Look at other international news sources and you will see the difference.
I am Israel - and you Palestinians want to negotiate "peace!?" But you are not as smart as me; I will negotiate, but will only let you have your municipalities while I control your borders, your water, your airspace, and anything else of importance. While we negotiate," I will swallow your hilltops and fill them with settlements, populated by the most extremist of my extremists, armed to the teeth. These settlements will be connected with roads you cannot use, and you will be imprisoned in your little Bantustans between them, surrounded by checkpoints in every direction.
I am Israel - with the fourth strongest army in the world, possessing nuclear weapons. How dare your children confront my oppression with stones, don't you know my soldiers won't hesitate to blow their heads off? In 17 months, I have killed 900 of you and injured 17,000, mostly civilians, and have the mandate to continue since the international community remains silent. Ignore, as I do, the hundreds of Israeli soldiers who are now refusing to carry out my control over your lands and people; their voices of conscience will not protect you.
I am Israel - and you want freedom? I have bullets, tanks, missiles, Apaches, and F-16's, to obliterate you. I have placed your towns under siege, confiscated your lands, uprooted your trees, demolished your homes, and you still demand freedom? Don't you get the message? You will never have peace or freedom, because this land is my biblical right.
Tell me ur opinions...
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Posted: 2002-04-12 16:54:00
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