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@scotsboy, thats the most impressive post on esato. @axxxr, no-ones listening to @adt079 anyway. www.stopesso.com
This message was posted from a P900
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Posted: 2004-07-08 09:10:19
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the point i make is that u guys have such a bad outlook on americans like all we do is go around talking about how good we are and how sorry every1 else is thats just not the case And some of the stuff i said was in a sarcastic manner because if thats how some of u see us then thats fine with me i still sleep well at night and 2 i dont have to bring up all the acheivments that we have made they are already well known...i cant help it that we spend more time "Helping Other Country's instead of are own"we do have poverty......But the thing is if u goto school u can do whatever u want in america with ur life thats one of the great things .......See it how u will Axxxr we have soldiers dying everyday also,im also glad we went to Iraq because if u have ever read anything about Uday And Qusai they were far worst than saddam im glad we killed them....Also u talk so much about oil u dont think ur goverments has it's own agenda also i think so...And if u dont like blair anymore than bush why havent u made any refrences about him or any1 else in here...lets blame bush for everything....think pre Sept 11 clinton was still bombing iraq they where not letting any inspecters in to check there weapons program,do u really think saddam wasnt going at some time to attack us,he was, it was only a matter of time and if not him than his sons...im sorry but after sept 11 we need to do whatever possible to keep are nation safe...if that means taking a hostile dictator out than so be it....but hey we hate every1 ,,Afirca with are funding to help stop the aids epidimec,south korea to help defend itself,Isreal from being attack by the world,Columbia to help the stop drug trafficking,among alot more....I have one Question For Axxxr What would u really like to see America Do???/Do u want us to sit back and wait for anthor Attack do u want us to stop giving aid to every1 so we can take care of the people in are country that dont want to get off there ass and make somthing of themselfs.....Most of Are national Debt is from helping other nation's...lets me hear what u think.....
@ sammyboy yes some stuff was said to piss him off i have upmost respect for every1 that shows me a little respect but when all i hear is Bush This America that it tends to get old after awhile...And no im not One to push and say yeah....
at 1 point i had a best friend that had just come over from england had no freinds and i was willing to be there for him.....he was a great person.....
so dont think i hate some1 because there not american cause it's just not the case...i have spoke my peice and will no longer waste my time with this attacking each other
This will be my last post till i get back to florida so i will have to catch up when i get back----U guys have a great time--till then have fun
"IT'S BETTER TO BE PISSED OFF THAN PISSED ON"
[ This Message was edited by: ADT0079 on 2004-07-08 08:28 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ADT0079 on 2004-07-08 08:42 ]
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Posted: 2004-07-08 09:14:08
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Lets get one thing straight Adt..We brits have nothing against america or its people..Again i have to keep on saying this time and again..Its your evil leader Bush and the govt we are against..We are pissed of america and it policys around the world coz so many thoussands of innocent men,women and children have died and are dieing everyday.America's so called war on terrror was a retaliation against 9/11..2500 people died that day.Since then over 10,000 iraqis have died,aswell as 1000's who have died in Afghanistan.Is this american justice..Makes America as bad as Al-Qaida..I've never ever said that Saddam or Uday or Qusai were good.They were evil men no dought.But who america the right to make up lies and deciet against a foreign and soverign country.If American really wanted saddam removed they was a 100 different ways to do it.But everyone knows what america's agenda really was in iraq.No intelligent man will believe the lies that Bush fed the world.have u not seen Farenheight 9/11,.This war was based on just pure lies.Even 5 american generals went to the whitehouse with a petition for the removal of g.w.bush because they think that Bush is a threat to world peace.Period.We all know about the achiements the u.s has made in history,and its done some good things aswell,,not all bad.But america with its great power and wealth and build on its achiements have so much more respect from the countrys of the world.You talk about Iraq not letting in u.n inspectors and breaking all u.n resolutions..Israel has broken every u.n resolution in the book yet i dont see american invading or attacking it..south korea has WMD's they have broken u.n resolutions why does'nt the u.s invade them.I hope u do understand where im coming from here.In the u.s you have this stupid thing of being patriotic..dont let patriotism to your country blind you.your blindly letting your leaders do what they want by waveing you flag every given opertunity.I mean please whats all that about?I don't give reference to Blair coz he is a fool who is blindly following idiot.Tony blair feels its in the interest of the u.k to help america in its war.I believe only because its a historical tradition that the brits and the yanks fight togther.The u.s helped us in the second world war so we belive its now an obligation for us to help you in yours.Not that we are stand to benefit by this in anyway.on the contrary we will lose out.Adt..I just want america and specially g.w.bush to leave the world alone..encourage democracy and freedom where neccessary but the same rules policy should apply to all nations.and not just when it suits america..do u know what im saying?.You think that america or the world is a safer place now than before..Its been proven by your american CIA and the FBI that it has become more dangerous now than its ever been.Even high ranking american officials have said time and again that coz of g.w.bushes policys in the world the threat against america and countries which support america has gone up 100%.Terrorism will continue to rise as long as america stays in the middle east and afghanistan.So the problem is actually getting worse.You keep on saying that america is handing out aid..Dont think by handing out aid to poor countrys you have the right to say and whatever to them..I say dont give them aid if they are such a threat..I believe america should leave everyone alone..and get back to looking after its own people..Like scotsboy said you have many problems in your country which needs sorting.
I have lots of family,relations who are american so i dont have anything against america itself.Its just the leaders that im against.America is a great place to visit,but with the appaling crime rate i would never live there..
ADT i am glad that you have come to your senses and have decided not to make peronal attacks..Wise decision..But i will continue my campaign against Bush and against illegle american occupation in iraq..aswell as any other american unjustice.
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Posted: 2004-07-08 10:42:08
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@ADT have a good time in Vegas
I'm glad u 2 seem to have agreed 2 disagree, this is something that can be debated till the cows come home! I don't think anyone here hates anyone else, just remember this is a healthy debate, no reason 4 Personal attacks
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Posted: 2004-07-08 14:40:00
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Atrocities in Iraq: 'I killed innocent people for the American government'
For nearly 12 years, Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey was a hard-core, some say gung-ho, Marine. For three years he trained fellow Marines in one of the most grueling indoctrination rituals in military life - Marine boot camp.
The Iraq war changed Massey. The brutality, the sheer carnage of the U.S. invasion, touched his conscience and transformed him forever. He was honorably discharged with full severance last Dec. 31 and is now back in his hometown, Waynsville, N.C.
he expressed his remorse at the civilian loss of life in incidents in which he himself was involved.
Q: You spent 12 years in the Marines. When were you sent to Iraq?
A: I went to Kuwait around Jan. 17. I was in Iraq from the get-go. And I was involved in the initial invasion.
Q: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a Marine?
A: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people. I think at first the Iraqis had the understanding that casualties are a part of war. But over the course of time, the occupation hurt the Iraqis. And I didn't see any humanitarian support.
Q: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the Marines?
A: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and secure the roadways. There was this one particular incident - and there's many more - the one that really pushed me over the edge. It involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or material. That's the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow down. So we lit them up.
Q: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns?
A: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go off. But we never heard any. Well, this particular vehicle we didn't destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything wrong." That hit me like a ton of bricks.
Q: He spoke English?
A: Oh, yeah.
Q: Baghdad was being bombed. The civilians were trying to get out, right?
A: Yes. They received pamphlets, propaganda we dropped on them. It said, "Just throw up your hands, lay down weapons." That's what they were doing, but we were still lighting them up. They weren't in uniform. We never found any weapons.
Q: You got to see the bodies and casualties?
A: Yeah, firsthand. I helped throw them in a ditch.
Q: Over what period did all this take place?
A: During the invasion of Baghdad.
'We lit him up pretty good'
Q: How many times were you involved in checkpoint "light-ups"?
A: Five times. There was [the city of] Rekha. The gentleman was driving a stolen work utility van. He didn't stop. With us being trigger happy, we didn't really give this guy much of a chance. We lit him up pretty good. Then we inspected the back of the van. We found nothing. No explosives.
Q: The reports said the cars were loaded with explosives. In all the incidents did you find that to be the case?
A: Never. Not once. There were no secondary explosions. As a matter of fact, we lit up a rally after we heard a stray gunshot.
Q: A demonstration? Where?
A: On the outskirts of Baghdad. Near a military compound. There were demonstrators at the end of the street. They were young and they had no weapons. And when we rolled onto the scene, there was already a tank that was parked on the side of the road. If the Iraqis wanted to do something, they could have blown up the tank. But they didn't. They were only holding a demonstration. Down at the end of the road, we saw some RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) lined up against the wall. That put us at ease because we thought: "Wow, if they were going to blow us up, they would have done it."
Q: Were the protest signs in English or Arabic?
A: Both.
Q: Who gave the order to wipe the demonstrators out?
A: Higher command. We were told to be on the lookout for the civilians because a lot of the Fedayeen and the Republican Guards had tossed away uniforms and put on civilian clothes and were mounting terrorist attacks on American soldiers. The intelligence reports that were given to us were basically known by every member of the chain of command. The rank structure that was implemented in Iraq by the chain of command was evident to every Marine in Iraq. The order to shoot the demonstrators, I believe, came from senior government officials, including intelligence communities within the military and the U.S. government.
Q: What kind of firepower was employed?
A: M-16s, 50-cal. machine guns.
Q: You fired into six or ten kids? Were they all taken out?
A: Oh, yeah. Well, I had a "mercy" on one guy. When we rolled up, he was hiding behind a concrete pillar. I saw him and raised my weapon up, and he put up his hands. He ran off. I told everybody, "Don't shoot." Half of his foot was trailing behind him. So he was running with half of his foot cut off.
Q: After you lit up the demonstration, how long before the next incident?
A: Probably about one or two hours. This is another thing, too. I am so glad I am talking with you, because I suppressed all of this.
Q: Well, I appreciate you giving me the information, as hard as it must be to recall the painful details.
A: That's all right. It's kind of therapy for me. Because it's something that I had repressed for a long time.
Q: And the incident?
A: There was an incident with one of the cars. We shot an individual with his hands up. He got out of the car. He was badly shot. We lit him up. I don't know who started shooting first. One of the Marines came running over to where we were and said: "You all just shot a guy with his hands up." Man, I forgot about this.
Depleted uranium and cluster bombs
Q: You mention machine guns. What can you tell me about cluster bombs, or depleted uranium?
A: Depleted uranium. I know what it does. It's basically like leaving plutonium rods around. I'm 32 years old. I have 80 percent of my lung capacity. I ache all the time. I don't feel like a healthy 32-year-old.
Q: Were you in the vicinity of of depleted uranium?
A: Oh, yeah. It's everywhere. DU is everywhere on the battlefield. If you hit a tank, there's dust.
Q: Did you breath any dust?
A: Yeah.
Q: And if DU is affecting you or our troops, it's impacting Iraqi civilians.
A: Oh, yeah. They got a big wasteland problem.
Q: Do Marines have any precautions about dealing with DU?
A: Not that I know of. Well, if a tank gets hit, crews are detained for a little while to make sure there are no signs or symptoms. American tanks have depleted uranium on the sides, and the projectiles have DU in them. If an enemy vehicle gets hit, the area gets contaminated. Dead rounds are in the ground. The civilian populace is just now starting to learn about it. Hell, I didn't even know about DU until two years ago. You know how I found out about it? I read an article in Rolling Stone magazine. I just started inquiring about it, and I said "Holy s---!"
Q: Cluster bombs are also controversial. U.N. commissions have called for a ban. Were you acquainted with cluster bombs?
A: I had one of my Marines in my battalion who lost his leg from an ICBM.
Q: What's an ICBM?
A: A multi-purpose cluster bomb.
Q: What happened?
A: He stepped on it. We didn't get to training about clusters until about a month before I left.
Q: What kind of training?
A: They told us what they looked like, and not to step on them.
Q: Were you in any areas where they were dropped?
A: Oh, yeah. They were everywhere.
Q: Dropped from the air?
A: From the air as well as artillery.
Q: Are they dropped far away from cities, or inside the cities?
A: They are used everywhere. Now if you talked to a Marine artillery officer, he would give you the runaround, the politically correct answer. But for an average grunt, they're everywhere.
Q: Including inside the towns and cities?
A: Yes, if you were going into a city, you knew there were going to be ICBMs.
Q: Cluster bombs are anti-personnel weapons. They are not precise. They don't injure buildings, or hurt tanks. Only people and living things. There are a lot of undetonated duds and they go off after the battles are over.
A: Once the round leaves the tube, the cluster bomb has a mind of its own. There's always human error. I'm going to tell you: The armed forces are in a tight spot over there. It's starting to leak out about the civilian casualties that are taking place. The Iraqis know. I keep hearing reports from my Marine buddies inside that there were 200-something civilians killed in Fallujah. The military is scrambling right now to keep the raps on that. My understanding is Fallujah is just littered with civilian bodies.
Embedded reporters
Q: How are the embedded reporters responding?
A: I had embedded reporters in my unit, not my platoon. One we had was a South African reporter. He was scared s---less. We had an incident where one of them wanted to go home.
Q: Why?
A: It was when we started going into Baghdad. When he started seeing the civilian casualties, he started wigging out a little bit. It didn't start until we got on the outskirts of Baghdad and started taking civilian casualties.
Q: I would like to go back to the first incident, when the survivor asked why did you kill his brother. Was that the incident that pushed you over the edge, as you put it?
A: Oh, yeah. Later on I found out that was a typical day. I talked with my commanding officer after the incident. He came up to me and says: "Are you OK?" I said: "No, today is not a good day. We killed a bunch of civilians." He goes: "No, today was a good day." And when he said that, I said "Oh, my goodness, what the hell am I into?"
Q: Your feelings changed during the invasion. What was your state of mind before the invasion?
A: I was like every other troop. My president told me they got weapons of mass destruction, that Saddam threatened the free world, that he had all this might and could reach us anywhere. I just bought into the whole thing.
Q: What changed you?
A: The civilian casualties taking place. That was what made the difference. That was when I changed.
Q: Did the revelations that the government fabricated the evidence for war affect the troops?
A: Yes. I killed innocent people for our government. For what? What did I do? Where is the good coming out of it? I feel like I've had a hand in some sort of evil lie at the hands of our government. I just feel embarrassed, ashamed about it.
Showdown with superiors
Q: I understand that all the incidents - killing civilians at checkpoints, itchy fingers at the rally - weigh on you. What happened with your commanding officers? How did you deal with them?
A: There was an incident. It was right after the fall of Baghdad, when we went back down south. On the outskirts of Karbala, we had a morning meeting on the battle plan. I was not in a good mindset. All these things were going through my head - about what we were doing over there. About some of the things my troops were asking. I was holding it all inside. My lieutenant and I got into a conversation. The conversation was striking me wrong. And I lashed out. I looked at him and told him: "You know, I honestly feel that what we're doing is wrong over here. We're committing genocide."
He asked me something and I said that with the killing of civilians and the depleted uranium we're leaving over here, we're not going to have to worry about terrorists. He didn't like that. He got up and stormed off. And I knew right then and there that my career was over. I was talking to my commanding officer.
Q: What happened then?
A: After I talked to the top commander, I was kind of scurried away. I was basically put on house arrest. I didn't talk to other troops. I didn't want to hurt them. I didn't want to jeopardize them.
I want to help people. I felt strongly about it. I had to say something. When I was sent back to stateside, I went in front of the sergeant major. He's in charge of 3,500-plus Marines. "Sir," I told him, "I don't want your money. I don't want your benefits. What you did was wrong."
It was just a personal conviction with me. I've had an impeccable career. I chose to get out. And you know who I blame? I blame the president of the U.S. It's not the grunt. I blame the president because he said they had weapons of mass destruction. It was a lie.
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Posted: 2004-07-09 03:26:43
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i hate...
dumb arrogant americans.
reserved lager lout brits.
frog eating arrogant french.
boring pedo belgiums.
greasey side switching italians.
drug dealing colombians.
beer drinking sausage eating germans.
drunk mafia oligarc russians.
takeaway owning women repressing arabs.
sneaky mobile obsessed
little japanese.
tribal fueding aid grabbing africans.
etc. etc.
brothers, sisters we are all people of this earth let us join and defeat the real evils in this world, greed, arrogance, racism, fear. america (government and media) may have these traits stronger than other countries but that is because they are the current world empire. britain was the same when they were the worlds strongest empire and so was spain and same again with the romans. not that that excuses them but that we should expect it.
peeta
ps @axxxar "Tony blair feels its in the interest of the u.k to help america in its war.I believe only because its a historical tradition that the brits and the yanks fight togther.The u.s helped us in the second world war so we belive its now an obligation for us to help you in yours"
i believe tony blair knew bush was going to invade iraq no matter what the u.n. or any country said.
so
1. in order keep the u.s. involved in the u.n. (even on the most shallow of levels) he went along betting that pressured, others would too.
2.i also partly believe that he like lots of other world leaders saw that by openly supporting bush they could gain favours in return ex. america turning a blind eye to russian terrorism in chehnya, chinese terrorism in western china, british companies gaining contracts in post-war iraq and the keoto agreement.
pps re DU in iraq, the same thing happened during and after the last iraq war. the contaminated dust got blowen into towns and there was a sharp rise in births of seriously deformed babies. john pilger made a very good documentary about the children of iraq highlighting these issues. the military leaders know and just don't care about who dies (iraqi civilians or american soldiers) so long as they can further their careers and buy a bigger house, better car better school for their kids etc etc materialist american dream greed.
@axxxr again. where did you get that from?
[ This Message was edited by: peeta on 2004-07-09 03:15 ]
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Posted: 2004-07-09 03:46:27
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Sorry that was published in an article for a american online news site the sacremento bee.
http://www.sacbee.com/content[....]/story/9316830p-10241546c.html
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Posted: 2004-07-09 14:58:54
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After today's news of that report damning the CIA, I have one thing to say (pinched from the film 'Good Morning Vietnam') :
"Military intelligence - now there's a contradiction in terms!"
I'd
if the war hadn't cost so many lives.
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Posted: 2004-07-09 22:56:33
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lets get this straight--war is hell. Civilians are gonna die, no matter what.
while that does frustrate me, its not "big deal" that we are talking about here. The people that are to blame are NOT the soldiers (including iraqis fighting the u.s.) but the people who dont mind having thousands of people die so they can sell toilet seats for 40,000 dollars.
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Posted: 2004-07-09 23:12:35
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A guy was traveling through Mexico on vacation ?> when, lo and behold, he
> lost his wallet and all identification.
>
> Cutting his trip short, he attempts to make his way home but is
>stopped
>
> by the Customs Agent at the border.
>
> "May I see your identification, please?" asks the agent. "I'm
>sorry,
>
> but I lost my wallet," replies the guy.
>
> "Sure, buddy, I hear that every day. No ID, no crossing the
>border,"
>
> says the agent
>
> "But I can prove that I'm an American!" he exclaims.
>
> "I have a picture of Ronald Reagan tattooed on one butt cheek
>and a
>
> picture of George Bush on the other."
>
> "This I gotta see," replies the agent. With that, Joe drops his
>pants
>
> and bends over in front of the agent.
>
> "By golly, you're right!" exclaims the agent. "Go on home to
>Boston."
>
> "Thanks!" he says "But how did you know I was from Boston?" The
>agent
>
> replies, "I recognized the picture of John Kerry in the middle."
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Posted: 2004-07-11 16:29:56
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