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pdf refers to MIDP3, not to SE phones OS


firmware based on Java? ohh, you are very wrong. firmware owns Java implementation (platform to execute J2ME applications) and that's all



Capuchin is bridge between Flash Lite and J2ME which means that you can use Flash Lite in J2ME applications. everything is inside J2ME implementation, not inside phone firmware/OS. it they are talking about UI then they are talking about UI of J2ME apps not phone UI



[ This Message was edited by: Raiderski on 2008-06-27 12:19 ]
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Posted: 2008-06-27 13:16:22
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I'm very hard pressed that the lot of users on Esato, after being members for more than 2mths wanting to see/use more out of their SE phones, have NOT used a J2ME app. I'm assuming, and usually a bad thing, but its not a bad concensus seeing threads here. The WOW factor means that although the SE OEM OS is NOT based on Java, this time around with Capuchin will be heavily integrated using it. For instance, the Walkman player IS BASED on J2ME - protected (I'm guessing here, but its the ONLY firmware based app, besides the Messages component, that'll show as a running app when you switch to something else. Strange). Furthermore, the WOW! becomes exactly that because we can TELL the apps to RUN upon Booting up the phone, essentially making it a smartphone: GMail auto checking for email because its launched on Bootup, and permissions already set to allow for Internet by user. GoogleMaps, PDF reader, etc.



You got MOST of this correct. Only thing you missed is that Capuchin also allows for the J2ME to use Flash Lite as well - submenu navigation . Head of Java division specifically mentioned this at the Sun ONE conference. The speed of Shiho's menu makes me think either the cpu is vastly improved, OR Flash Lite is the menu. Coding with Flash can be VERY fast, yet when coded wrong we see sites take forever to load even. Because Shihoo will debut in Q4-2008 I'm guestimating it'll use MIDP3. The JVM will have better access to the core Firmware working in tandem.

As of now, J2ME can be coded to use Bluetooth, a sub-cpu system (control stacks, etc). I see no reason - other than if restricts the calls - to use other subsystems or even bring data from the Messaging system or Call List. You're the programmer, you'll have an idea what I'm trying to say, but it's YOU that'll create some incredible apps that ME/WE would LOVE to use. Open your .... MIND! (Matrix lol).


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Posted: 2008-06-27 17:52:19
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first of all, to be clear, I'm huge fan of less-restricted Java in mobile. right now even with a lot of API's J2ME application is very restrictive. I don't like this but I understand reason (security model) and I can accept it. od course we can access file system on memory, use hardware (camera, bluetooth etc.) but still running J2ME app is like a "holy cow running in JVM, keep it away from firmware"

after my experience I can say that SE (starting from K500) have really good J2ME implementation (moreover also great J2ME emulators for PC). they have potential to create something like phone OS and JVM working on equal level. well, they SHOULD do something because SE don't have right now (except UIQ and simple J2ME apps) base to gather software developers around. we are in XXI century, phone is not phone only, many people are looking for software to their devices, simple J2ME is not enough. of course we know where is SE and where are Symbian, WM, etc. applications reaching for FlashLite developers and environment is good decision but will not be enough if application will be as much restrictive as now (OS layer, JVM layer - both "independent"). what I see in Capuchin documentation - they will be. yep, MIDP3 can improve situation a lot but SE is talking about JavaPlatform8 (8.4), so at this moment Shiho is MIDP2.1 device

right now I don't believe in tandem of multitasking J2ME applications running in OS and treated as normal (included in) firmware application. nevermind... direction can be only one - we need bigger and better software for our phones and I believe that SE know about this

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Posted: 2008-06-27 21:12:35
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Thanks for the clarification and updated info! So Shiho is a MIDP2.1 device. However, I'll disagree - if you'll allow it - on Java not being enough for a powerful OS. Look at the Blackberry's based heavily on MIDP2.0 & CDLC. Of course J2ME are changed to RIMLets instead of javalets or whatever their standardly called; its pretty much the same with a high model for security. And believe me they're are very powerful apps coming.
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Posted: 2008-06-27 21:43:16
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no no! I believe in Java based OS or at least OS+JVM on equal privileges (this would be nice). well, SE is going in right direction - they really believe in J2ME

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[ This Message was edited by: Raiderski on 2008-06-27 20:47 ]
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Posted: 2008-06-27 21:47:41
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Indeed! They've done excellent thus far, I'm hoping that OS+JVM on Equal priviledges becomes the next phase from .

Has anyone done a review on the C905 pre-production model yet?! Specifically on the Calendar - if improved - or on any other aspect besides a minor feature bump?!
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Posted: 2008-06-28 02:35:08
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Phone Arena did one here

Preview
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Posted: 2008-06-28 02:38:06
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@Raidersky Nice to have you in here I like your 'way of thinking'. Do you see java applications to be as good/effective/powerfull as S60 ones? At the moment even my old 7650 runs native apps better then the best java. On my N73 I have 3 java programs stored in 'Javacrap' folder Nice to hear about java improving. I very much doubt they will ever be as good as applications running in C++/assembly.
Greetings from South Africa bud
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Posted: 2008-06-28 03:37:53
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Hey what about me?! No love for me?! Was it not I that brought out the conversation and insight of Raidersky?! I like how he thinks too - hoping your a he and I didn't make a major mistake - and Its GOOD to see Java programmers participate in conversation here as it really helps us understand what they face and also what news will affect us. We help with maybe/hopefully giving them a target market and ideas for new apps and new paradigms in how we use our phones.

I'm not sure how S60 uses the J2ME applications or if their JVM is as good as 's, but it doesn't seem so. It's been TOO long since I've used S60 and will again later this summer - not sure if its been improved. I think C++ offers so much more in terms of applications on S60 but I don't think J2ME has limits in offering the same compatibility by nature of the code - I really don't know only from what I see of apps on BlackBerry - but maybe its in the JVM used. Raidersky, care to chime in to correct me/us on this topic, please?!

Sry to mods if they feel recent posts may not be relative to the C905 - but I feel its important so that we understand more of how SE's JVM is used. Also any other coders, and to Raidersky too, are beginning to code soon with Capuchin in mind?!

Thanks all.

EDIT: PS: Maybe more Java type questions, in general towards all phones, maybe better carried in this thread?
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=160466&start=0

Sry again, just trying to help out the Mods. And not tee off ppl wanting specific conversation towards the C905 - I know Masseur will be like shame on you Prom1 for carrying on in here, you know better. hehe.
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T18z|T39m twice loveless|:SE: K750|W810| BB Pearl|K790a|K850i. I 5MP & auto focus. I Tri-band HSDPA.

[ This Message was edited by: Prom1 on 2008-06-28 04:06 ]
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Posted: 2008-06-28 05:04:18
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mario2004
if you doubt... you have right. programming for Symbian I can describe as "freedom", Java is far far away from this style and speed of working application (in this case it's not that bad). never say "never" however Java is much more programmer friendly for beginners

one thing to note: I really hate implementations of APIs with "dead" methods, small example: changing quality of captured picture from camera. method exist but doesn't work for K800

even "symbianized" Nokia don't forget about Java but they don't see reason to create from JVM something more than JVM only. I understand them because they know what to do with Symbian

if we look further at Android, it support Java applications right now

is Java the right direction? I think so

ok, we're going oftopic

[ This Message was edited by: Raiderski on 2008-06-28 08:50 ]
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Posted: 2008-06-28 09:07:25
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