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On 2005-09-07 20:20:27, vanquish wrote:
hey this aint your thread mate, no need to tread on peoples toes. im getting mixed up with another religion. in fact im all mixed up lol.
tut tut - never said it was my thread, at least pleber knows what he's talking about. At last a christian who knows about his faith, been waiting for so long.
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Posted: 2005-09-07 20:33:53
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@ peterkay lmao
im with peter kay
tempsonyfreak
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Posted: 2005-09-07 20:35:32
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Now now chaps let's play nice.
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-09-07 19:38 ]
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Posted: 2005-09-07 20:37:51
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tempsonyfreak
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[ This Message was edited by: tempsonyfreak on 2005-09-07 19:40 ]
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Posted: 2005-09-07 20:39:54
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Perhaps we should get away from economics here, this really isn't the thread for it.
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Posted: 2005-09-07 20:41:35
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I agree scott- last point! (does this mean I'll be getting the last word in??
)
I wasn't saying that rich countries are Christian, I was only pointing out how little rich Muslim countries there are… You say western countries were industrialised first- but why? Life and civilisation came from the middle east so how come they didn't keep up with the rest of the world?
Saudi Arabia doesn't have much resource apart from Oil? Well, that’s true, but then what natural resources does the UK have apart from Oil and Gas? Saudi Arabia should in theory be richer than the U.K., no?
I don’t know if there exists a link between religion and wealth, but there does seem to be some sort of a link...
If you take a look at rich countries (any list does really, wither it be GDP, or PPP etc), about 15 out of the first 20 are Christian (Or at least founded in Christianity... e.g. I consider the U.K. to be a "Christian" country even though Christianity has declined so much that only about 9% of its population go to Church regularly).
I know there are lots of different reasons for this; I’m certainly not saying that God is "rewarding" Christian countries- maybe the social structure of Christianity lends itself to more ambition etc? But by looking at the figures, you have to admit that Christian countries dominate the rich list for whatever reason. (Though I'm sure you'll have something to say about that!)
Ok, moving on- (tho I think its only fair to let Scot argue his point about the above
Peter_Kay - Does Islam support democracy? Is it neutral on the subject?
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Posted: 2005-09-07 20:58:23
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On 2005-09-07 20:41:35, scotsboyuk wrote:
Perhaps we should get away from economics here, this really isn't the thread for it.
agree with ya scots.
@pleber, democracy has a place in Islam as many other faiths but Islam has its Shariahs (laws) which cannot be broken. If they are not followed then questions will be asked in the hearafter.
What does Christianity say Pleber regarding breaking its biblical laws?
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Posted: 2005-09-07 21:07:55
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The Bible says that we should obey the law of the land to the point that it does not interfere with the bible teaching. The bible tells Christians how to live etc., but if you ignore these teachings and live in sin without repenting, you lose the joy of your salvation, but you still have it. So those who believe on Jesus and the salvation He provides will go to heaven.
Those that live by God's way are rewarded more than those that do not. You see, I believe in what Jesus did for me, so I am saved from hell (Even though that’s where I SHOULD be going).
If I believed on Jesus, but then didn’t follow the Bible, and do what I want, and live for myself, that is sin, HOWEVER, because Jesus has already died and took the punishment for all these sins that I've committed, it means that I don't have to. He pays the price for my sins... So when I reach heaven, I will not be judged for anything because Jesus has been judged for me..
God's salvation is perfect because it doesn’t rely on man! I'm mighty glad I'm not depending on myself to get to heaven.
That’s where I find it hard to understand other faiths that depend on good works or how you live your lift etc. to get to heaven. If it’s good works that get you there, then how much is enough? Do some people get to heaven just in no more, and others who have been a little less “religious” just miss out in no more? When can you know you have done enough to get into heaven and when can you feel certainty of heaven? I would be very miserable if I was continually uncertain if I was being “good” enough. Is there certainty in Islam? Are there Muslins that can say without doubt “I’m going to heaven”?
A lot of questions there peter_kay, but thanks in advance…
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Posted: 2005-09-07 21:28:40
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Sorry one more question about the wealth.
If say the Muslim population was based mainly in the west and the Christian population in the Middle East when all these religions first came about do you think the Christians would be poorer and the Muslims richer? Would Afghanistan be full of skyscrapers and New York be full of shanty towns (not necessarily shanty towns but hope you know what I mean)?
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my ebay items[ This Message was edited by: joebmc on 2005-09-07 22:01 ]
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Posted: 2005-09-07 22:51:47
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On 2005-09-07 20:58:23, pleber wrote:
I agree scott- last point! (does this mean I'll be getting the last word in??
)
[/quote]
Well I'll answer this and then you can reply if you like, but I'm dropping it after that.
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I wasn't saying that rich countries are Christian, I was only pointing out how little rich Muslim countries there are… You say western countries were industrialised first- but why? Life and civilisation came from the middle east so how come they didn't keep up with the rest of the world?
Civilisation didn't just come from the Middle East, it also began in the Indus valley region and in China, but we shall focus on the Middle East at this point.
Many Arabic empires were more advanced than their European counterparts in the Middle Ages. However, the Rennesaince unleashed a great deal of cultural and scientific advancement in Europe and this was continued into the Enlightenment. The European powers fought one another for world dominance and in so doing they obtained very large empires. These empires created vast amounts of trade and brought great resources to the European powers. Using the wealth from this trade and these new resources the European powers were able to indutrialise and in doing so they gained a technological advantage over the older empires such as the Ottoman Empire.
Because much of the world was dominated by Europe the Islamic world was largely under European control and hence developed at the pace dictated by Europeans. Obviously the Europeans powers concentrated upon their homelands first and foremost.
America, Canada, Australia, etc only really industrialised to any great extent in the 20th century. The Islamic world started industrialising later and is only now beginning to see the same sort of manuafcturing and technological capabilities as the First World.
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Saudi Arabia doesn't have much resource apart from Oil? Well, that’s true, but then what natural resources does the UK have apart from Oil and Gas? Saudi Arabia should in theory be richer than the U.K., no?
The UK has cereals/vegetables/crops, cattle, fish, coal, minerals, forests and wave and wind energy capabilities to name a few. The UK also has a large luxury goods market. Some of the UK's exports: machine tools, electric power equipment, automation equipment, railroad equipment, shipbuilding, aircraft, motor vehicles and parts, electronics and communications equipment, metals, chemicals, coal, petroleum, paper and paper products, food processing, textiles, clothing, and other consumer goods.
The UK also has a larger population that Saudi Arabia. The UK population is also better educate don the whole with more than 99% of the population being able to read and write as well as significant numbers of the population studying for or posessing degrees. This then allows the UK to maintain a diverse range of industries and services as well as generating significant amounts of tax revenue from the population base.
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I don’t know if there exists a link between religion and wealth, but there does seem to be some sort of a link...
If you take a look at rich countries (any list does really, wither it be GDP, or PPP etc), about 15 out of the first 20 are Christian (Or at least founded in Christianity... e.g. I consider the U.K. to be a "Christian" country even though Christianity has declined so much that only about 9% of its population go to Church regularly).
That may very well be the case, but it is purely coincidental and one must wonder at the link you claim to exist in light of the fact that most of Europe is very much secular. There is also the case of Japan, which is the world's second richest country. Japan is predominantly Shinto/Buddhist. As I said before, it is coincidence, the 'Christian' nations of Europe simply industrialised earlier and have a variety of resources to call upon.
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I know there are lots of different reasons for this; I’m certainly not saying that God is "rewarding" Christian countries- maybe the social structure of Christianity lends itself to more ambition etc? But by looking at the figures, you have to admit that Christian countries dominate the rich list for whatever reason. (Though I'm sure you'll have something to say about that!)
See my point above. If Christianity had anything to do with increased wealth then Europe as a whole should be getting poorer since Europeans are increasingly becoming more and more secular in outlook.
Christianity doesn't even affect the politicis or economic policies of most of those rich nations.
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Posted: 2005-09-07 23:46:08
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