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On 2005-09-17 17:12:34, pleber wrote:
I know one is 'expected' to obey the law over all else, but that's men's expectations, not God's. God expects you to obey him FULLY and FOREMOST, and then obey the law of the land etc.
I know our tax goes to good things as well as bad, but if the bad things are murder, do you really expect God approves you paying it?
But then I do not believe in such a God so that is not something, which concerns me.
As I said before, this isn't a theocracy, religious beliefs are secondary to the state and are seperated from the government. The government must act in the best interests of the people and the nation regardless of religious beliefs. People have freedom of religion, but they must also act within the law.
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Would you give to a charity that killed one person for every hundred it helped?
That doesn't sound like a charity.
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I mean, when we meet God to be judged, are you going to say 'well, yeah I did those things, but I'm a British subject First, you come in second...'?
As I said, I don't believe in a God, so this is something of a moot question for me.
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But I take your point and agree with you that we should pay taxes even if we know that some of it will be used to evil... I was just wondering what the opinions you people were
Good and evil are a matter of perspective, what you consider to be good or evil another may not.
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Posted: 2005-09-18 04:18:46
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God does not DEMAND you follow his rules.
The rules are brought down via a messenger in the form of a Holy Book. Those who follow those rules are considered to be part of the religion and are accepting that there are rules that they should follow.
You are not forced to abide by anything, and as such, you always have the choice to follow any religion you wish.
Muslims believe theirs is the final revelation, and Scotsboy believes Taoism helps guide him on the path of rightousness.
I am a Muslim because I believe that Islam helps to promote the good side in people, and God has given us rules that help to better us.
It is those people who use religion as a form of restriction that cause YOU pleber to believe that God has an alterior motive.
@scots, you should get technical with your last point. He obviously meant, evil things that are considered evil by most (such as murder).
The nice thing that I like about my country (Qatar) (as it is similar to Bahrain and the UAE), religion and the law has blended together and technology and ancient cultures are clearly visible.
It's beautiful.
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Oxygen Mobile[ This Message was edited by: amnesia on 2005-09-18 03:47 ]
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Posted: 2005-09-18 04:44:32
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@amnesia
I should like to point out that I am not on a path to 'reighteousness' nor would I seek to be. That isn't what Taoism is about.
I take your point concenring what pleber meant by evil, but again I would say that it is a matter of perspective. People have different views of the world and what constitutes good and bad. Even killing can be seen in shades of grey; what of the person who kills in self-defence or who helps someone die who is suffering?
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"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-09-18 04:47 ]
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Posted: 2005-09-18 05:44:04
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@amnesia . Religion and Law blended together is a rather contentious issue.
This message was posted from a S700
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Posted: 2005-09-18 08:01:34
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not with Sharee3a and the law. Sharee3a in itself is the law. but there is also the nations laws which fills in the gaps that sharee3a doesn't.
I believe in strict punishment. Only way to stop people from doing something bad in my opinion, is to show them that the consquences will be drastic.
@Scots, you misunderstand me, put the 'shades of grey' to one side for a moment. Not all things can be considered complicated to interpret as evil or not. Someone who kill for the fun of it can be perceived as evil, (you could be technical and say, maybe he doesn't know it's bad, maybe he worships a religion which says it's good, but we're not looking at these technicalities) When you speak about evil, it's not about what the law says is wrong, it's about what is truely evil from the root. If I beat women and rape them in the streets, there is no positive way of looking at it. (again, you can be technical, but thats not the point)
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Oxygen Mobile[ This Message was edited by: amnesia on 2005-09-18 13:52 ]
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Posted: 2005-09-18 14:49:35
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@pleber, thanks for quoting from the bible. I prefer to hear what the scripture actually states which gives better understanding of the faith.
I will continue on the actions and life of the final messenger Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Below is the Prophets actions when dressing:
The Holy Prophet (Sallallaho alaihe wasallam) use to put on sheet, gown, shirt and whatever he got. Green dress used to please him but most of his dresses were white. He said: Give your living men to dress with white garments and dress your dead therewith. He used to put on gown for Jihad. His shirt was long up to his thigh. He had only one shirt dyed with saffron with which he led prayers. Sometimes he put on only one shirt up to his thigh and say: I am only a slave. I put on garment as a slave puts on. He had two special garments for Jumma prayer which he did not put on at other times. Sometimes he had only one garment with which he cohabited with his wives. He had a black garment which he gifted away.
Omme Salma said: What fault has this black garment committed? He replied: I had put it on. She said: You look more beautiful if the black garment mixes with your beautiful constitution. Sometimes, he used to go out putting on a seal tied with thread in his hand. He used to impress his letters with seal and say: It is better to put seal in letter than back-biting. He used to put on cap under his turban. If he had no turban, he used to put on cap. Sometimes, he took off his cap from his head and fixed it in front as a prayer-stake. When he had no turban and cap, he covered his head with a sheet of cloth. He had a turban named Sahhab which he presented to Ali. (Radhiallahho Anho)
Whenever he put on a garment, he began from his right side and said: All praise is due to Allah who has given this garment to cover my private parts and to express adornment. When he wished to put off his garment, he began from his left side. When he put on a new garment, he gave his old cloth in charity to a poor man and said: If a Muslim gives his wearing garment to another Muslim, nobody except Allah will dress him. He remains in the custody of Allah till that cloth remains with him, be he alive or dead. His bed was made of grape-covers and refuges. It was two yards long and one yard and one cubit board.
He had the habit of naming animals, arms and properties. The name of his standard was Iqab, he had his swords named Zulfiqer, Makhzam, Rejab, and Kazib. The middle portion of his swords was moulded with silver. He used to wear belt of leather which had three rings of silver. The name of his arrow was Katum, of his shield Kafur, of his camel Qaswah, of his ass Duldul, another ass Ekab and of his goat Aynah whose milk he used to drink. He had an earthen pot, which he used as an ablution pot and drink water therefrom.
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Posted: 2005-09-18 15:16:38
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Tonight is a very special night for Mankind, it is the 15th of Shaban (islamic month before Ramadhan) which is a blessed and rewarding. The name given to the night is 'Shabe Baraa'at' which means 'Refuge from Hell'.
One glorious night is most favoured by Almighty Allah who sends down His blessings and forgiveness to mankind.
From a narration it has been acknowledged by Hazrat Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) that on one night she found the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) missing from beside her, on searching she found him in Jannatul-Baqi (graveyard in Medinah). On seeing her the Prophet (pbuh) asked, "Are you in fear that Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) would oppress you?"
She responded, "Oh Prophet of Allah, I thought that you may have proceeded from me to another of your wives."
The Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam replied, "Almighty Allah on Shab-e-baraa'at descends onto the first of the skies, forgiving more sinners than the hair on the backs of the sheep of `Banu Kalb'."
Hazrat Ali (R.A) narrates that the Prophet (pbuh) informed him,
"When the 15th of Sha'baan proceeds, perform salaat (prayer) and observe a fast on the following day, as Almighty Allah on this night descends onto the first of the skies, proclaiming,
`Lo! Is there anyone requesting for forgiveness that I may forgive? Is there anyone requesting for provisions that I may provide? Is there anyone in misfortune that I may deliver them from their misfortune?' and so forth enquiring of every need and trouble until sunrise."
The greatness and superiority of this night can be gathered from this Hadith. Glad tidings are for those who search earnestly for the shelter of their provider, consequently finding blessings and mercy on this night.
In another similar Hadith, Hazrat Abu Musa Ash'ari (RA) reports, from the Prophet (pbuh) that Almighty Allah on this night forgives all his servants excluding the polytheist and one who is malicious against others.
Hazrat Aaisha (RA) reports that the Prophet (pbuh) said, "Almighty Allah presents a listing of all those who are to take leave from the world within the forthcoming year to The Angel of Death, my hearty desire is such that I wish I am in the state of fasting when my name is incorporated in that list."
She has also narrated that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said," Do you know what this night holds? meaning the fifteenth night of Sha'baan." She questioned," And what does it hold?" He replied,"In it every child to be born in this year is written and every soul to leave this world in this year is recorded, and therein your deeds are raised and your sustenance is delivered." She then enquired if no-one was to enter Jannah but with the mercy of the Almighty Allah. He replied," No-one shall enter Jannah but with the mercy of Almighty Allah." He repeated this thrice. She then said," Not even yourself, O Prophet of Allah!" He proclaimed placing his hand on his head,"Not even me unless Allah bestows His mercy upon me. He (pbuh) repeated this thrice."
After being informed of the eminence of this night, it is a great shame and misfortune should we forsake this night and not take heed of these narrations.
Due to the benefit which one can gain on this night it is recommended to spend this entire night in worship and remembrance of Almighty Allah.
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Posted: 2005-09-18 16:14:03
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"When the 15th of Sha'baan proceeds, perform salaat (prayer) and observe a fast on the following day, as Almighty Allah on this night descends onto the first of the skies, proclaiming, `Lo! Is there anyone requesting for forgiveness that I may forgive? Is there anyone requesting for provisions that I may provide? Is there anyone in misfortune that I may deliver them from their misfortune?' and so forth enquiring of every need and trouble until sunrise."
Few Hours to go brothers, Almighty Allah is asking the above questions. Who is awake whilst most are sleeping? Who is in need of forgiveness? How lucky are we to have such opportunities.
Glory be to Almighty Allah, the Greatest, the Sublime.
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Posted: 2005-09-19 01:14:52
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On 2005-09-18 14:49:35, amnesia wrote:
@Scots, you misunderstand me, put the 'shades of grey' to one side for a moment.
I don't see the world in terms of absolutes.
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Not all things can be considered complicated to interpret as evil or not.
One should look for simplicity. I tend to look for the simplest explanation in all things.
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Someone who kill for the fun of it can be perceived as evil, (you could be technical and say, maybe he doesn't know it's bad, maybe he worships a religion which says it's good, but we're not looking at these technicalities)
But that isn't being technical, that is offering an explanation for that person's actions. Good and evil both exist and both are necessary for the other to be, but they are not absolute values. What one man thinks of as great good can be great evil to another. This doesn't mean to say that one cannot oppose evil, of course one can, and should, but one must recognise that it exists in life just as much as good does.
Good itself cannot exist without evil, they are part of each other. If one creates a moral system then one intrinsically creates both good and evil and as long as one continues to adhere to that system one is bound to accept the existence of both values. One defines one by the other.
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When you speak about evil, it's not about what the law says is wrong, it's about what is truely evil from the root. If I beat women and rape them in the streets, there is no positive way of looking at it. (again, you can be technical, but thats not the point)
You give a rather extreme example, but let's use that. I think we can both agree that such actions are terrible, but why? Why do we consider those actions to be bad? Because our society say that they are. Would you consider burning someone to death as evil? Five hundred years ago in this country is was perfetly acceptable to do so in the case of executing witches, yet we now consider it to be evil. Society's values change over time. These are human constructs, which are percieved and interpreted by men and women differently over time.
As a Taoist I look upon actions as having positive or negative effects. Taoism teaches balance and harmony, that we should live in harmony with nature and follow the natural way of things. Good and evil are man made concepts, they do not exist in nature as we understand them. Nature does not label one animal killing another as good or evil, it simply is. We, as human beings, attach meaning to our actions and in doing so we create explanations for those actions, which leads to belief in higher powers for that, which we cannot explain. The Taoist simply accepts life for what it is, he looks for no explanations to explain nature's events because he accepts that that is the order of things. When one can see the whole one realises that one does not need to, one merely needs to be.
I apologise if I sound somewhat enigmatic, but it is the best way I can explain this at this time.
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Posted: 2005-09-19 02:04:20
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What Should be Done in this Night?
In order to observe the Night of Bara'at, one should remain awakened in this night as much as he can. If someone has better opportunities, he should spend the whole night in worship and prayer. However, if one cannot do so for one reason or another, he can select a considerable portion of the night, preferably of the second half of it for this purpose, and should perform the following acts of worship:
(a) Salah (prayer). Salah is the most preferable act to be performed in this night. There is no particular number of Rak'at but preferably it should not be less than eight. It is also advisable that each part of the Salah like qiyam, rukoo' and sajdah should be longer than normal. The longest surahs of the Holy Quran one remembers by heart should be recited in the Salah of this night. If someone does not remember the long surahs, he can also recite several short surahs in one rak'ah.
(b) Tilawa (recitation). The recitation of the Holy Quran is another form of worship, very beneficent in this night. After performing Salah, or at any other time, one should recite as much of the Holy Quran as he can.
(c) Dhikr. One should also perform dhikr (recitation of the name of Allah) in this night. Particularly the following dhikr is very useful:
One should recite Salaam (durood) on Prophet Muhammad, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, as many times as he can. The dhikr can also be recited while walking, lying on bed and during other hours of work or leisure.
(d) Dua. The best benefit one can draw from the blessings of this night is prayers and supplications. It is hoped that all the prayers in this night will be accepted by our Lord, insha-Allah. Prayer itself is an 'Ibadah, and Allah Almighty gives reward on each prayer along with the fulfillment of the supplicator's need. Even if the purpose prayed for is not achieved, one cannot be deprived of the reward of the prayer which is sometimes more precious than the mundane benefits one strives for. The prayers and supplications also strengthen one's relation with Allah Almighty, which is the main purpose of all kinds and forms of worship.
One can pray for whatever purpose he wishes. But the best supplications are the ones made by Prophet Muhammad, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam. These are so comprehensive and all-encompassing prayers that all the human needs, of this world and the Hereafter, are fully covered in the eloquent expressions used in them. Actually, most of the prophetic prayers are so profound that human imagination can hardly match their greatness.
Several books in various languages are available which provide these prophetic prayers, and one should pray to Allah Almighty in accordance with them, whether by reciting their original Arabic text or by rendering their sense in one's own language.
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Posted: 2005-09-19 02:31:57
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