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On 2006-02-05 20:00:40, axxxr wrote:
Im not saying non-muslims should follow islamic law...just saying that they should at the least
respect someone else's belief.
I guess thats what Islamic nations are doing all over the world...
Non muslims are second grade citizens in most Muslim countries.
They are not allowed to hold public posts (of course i'm not talking about all islamic countries) or have as much freedom as their Muslim brothers..
Read
This
I agree when you say others should respect Islam (or any faith for that matter) but, for a non muslim, Islam is nothing more than a belief system... and afaik, no one apart from few individuals are aware of the nuances of various religious faiths. Why should people go about doing their business keeping the muslim population in mind? The danish newspaper had nothing to gain from all these negative publicity. One reason for the portrayal of prophet Mohammed in such a light could be plain ignorance. And i'm sure this cartoon was the result of plain ignorance on the part of the newspaper folks.. what reason could you find out? I dont think any newspaper would want to earn the "wrath" of the angry muslim population by the use of these kinds of cartoons.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 20:52:57
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Mate you need to understand no one is asking you to follow muslim laws,any muslim will tell you this!...By asking for a bit of respect isn't asking you to follow the Islamic law.
I understand muslims just want there religion respected but by kicking up a major fuss over cartoon, which was drawn by a non-muslim in a no-muslim country and demanding that they cant print things like that in their own non-muslim country (think i got the non-muslim part drummed in) muslims will not get respect.
Nor is video footage of an old man being beheaded in the name of muslims going to get respect but when this footage was shown their was no out cry by muslims.
I understand that the picture is to a muslim offensive, but to anyone else its just a stupid cartoon.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 20:53:56
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On 2006-02-05 20:53:56, joebmc wrote:
I understand muslims just want there religion respected but by kicking up a major fuss over cartoon, which was drawn by a non-muslim in a no-muslim country and demanding that they cant print things like that in their own non-muslim country (think i got the non-muslim part drummed in) muslims will not get respect.
Nor is video footage of an old man being beheaded in the name of muslims going to get respect but when this footage was shown their was no out cry by muslims.
I understand that the picture is to a muslim offensive, but to anyone else its just a stupid cartoon.
Everyones tried their level best to try and make you understand but seems like your not willing to so im going to leave it here because ive said what ive had to say and have nothing further to add to whats already been said by myself,Amnesia,Dealer,02,and Peterkay.
The beheadings are a seperate issue and has nothing to do with this debate....but since you mentioned it i will respond...Iraq is illegally occupied by u.s forces as you may well know,and thousans of innocent iraqi's have been killed by the u.s forces so when a when someone with no weapons wants to seek revenge and make a statement this is the best way to get the best attention to the world...It maybe wrong to you and I but dont forget they are fighting a war and its the iraqi's country they can do as they want!...looks at this way,say if someone was break into your home and attack your family what would you do..stand by and let it go on?..dont think so,you or anyone would fight!!...I know if it was me if i had intruders who came to attack me or my family i would blow their brains out.
Its easy for us to sit in our cushy homes and say how wicked and cruel muslims are by beheading people....but some of the people have no homes and have lost family at the hands of u.s forces...all they can see is revenge...its very easy to blame when your not in the position.
To you it may be just a stupid cartoon but that so called \"stupid cartoon\" is very insulting to the second largest religion on the planet so just accept it!
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Posted: 2006-02-05 21:12:03
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The reasoning behind the beheading is not what i'm talking about, the fact that this was broadcast wouldwide and imo very damaging towards muslims from opinons from the west. Yet there was no out cry about it.
Yet one little cartoons apears in one paper (at the time) and there's all this out cry!
The cartoon may mock, but the beheading was more damging for islam.
To an oustsider it doesn't make sense, And wont because most non-muslims wont and never will understand islam and shouldn't have to, to be told to understand islam is an offence to there faith/way of life.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 21:27:26
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On 2006-02-05 21:27:26, joebmc wrote:
The reasoning behind the beheading is not what i'm talking about, the fact that this was broadcast wouldwide and imo very damaging towards muslims from opinons from the west. Yet there was no out cry about it.
Yet one little cartoons apears in one paper (at the time) and there's all this out cry!
The cartoon may mock, but the beheading was more damging for islam.
To an oustsider it doesn't make sense, And wont because most non-muslims wont and never will understand islam and shouldn't have to, to be told to understand islam is an offence to there faith/way of life.
Why should muslims make a outcry about the beheadings?...What the u.s forces is doing in iraq is unjustified and unacceptable...most muslims feel and rightly so that the Iraqi's are suffering under occupation..anyway if it were'nt for the U.S forces illegally being there in the first place non of these beheadings would be taking place...Like i said desperate people do deperate things and beheadings is one of those things...we may not like it but it is war and things like this happen in war unfortunately.
Im beginging to sound like a parrot repeating myself with you...trust me muslims don't give a damm if you follow Islam or not,and all muslims want is for you to show a slight respect for the sake of harmony...everyone is entitled to their own beliefs but in order to have some sort of normality and peace to live together,respect for each others faiths is paramount.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 21:40:44
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Why should muslims make a outcry about the beheadings?...What the u.s forces is doing in iraq is unjustified and unacceptable...most muslims feel and rightly so that the Iraqi's are suffering under occupation..anyway if it were'nt for the U.S forces illegally being there in the first place non of these beheadings would be taking place...
Oh come on their are thousands if not more non-muslims protesting about this war.
But i dont see any muslim complaining about the brutality of the beheadings being shown world wide.
Somethings i really feel that muslims want to live in a muslim only world.
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Posted: 2006-02-05 21:45:24
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The fact of the matter is that in the EU secular law is paramount; religious beliefs are secondary. The EU is based upon secular values which do not recognise any one religious belief as being any more valid than another. EU citizens are free to discuss anything they wish, including religion and such freedom of speech includes satire. No religion should be off limits as far as free speech is concerned; all religions should be open to equal debate and discussion. Of course one should not seek to be deliberately offensive with religious beliefs.
Those who have been calling for violence in response to these cartoons have to understand that the EU is governed by secular law, not Islamic law. The EU is not an Islamic society and as such Islamic laws and traditions have no legal status upon EU citizens. No EU law has been broken with the publishing of these cartoons and the apalling reaction we have seen to them is unjustifiable. People may be upset, but that is no excuse for violence.
Other religions have been satarised in Europe and we have not seen anything near this sort of reaction. British newspapers regularly satarise the French and we do not see Frenchmen storming the British Embassy in Paris; a newspaper publishing an Irish joke does not illicit a response of Irishmen calling for beheadings; Jerry Springer the Opera has not resulted in Christians settings buildings on fire; when newspapers in Islamic countries have published cartoons that are extremely derogatory towards Jews (far worse than the Danish cartoons) we haven't seen Jews battling police in the streets. Why exactly are we seeing these sort of reactions from some Muslims?
Within the EU no religion has any right whatsoever to ask anything of anyone who does not believe in that religion beyond respect for its beliefs. Muslims have no right to ask that non-Muslims observe Islamic practices just as Christians have no right to ask Christians to observe non-Christian practices. Where exactly would we be if we had to observe religious practices we do not believe in? Should the whole EU observe a holy day every Friday, Saturday and Sunday? Should non-Christians be baptised because Christians believe that anyone who isn't will not be saved? Should non-Jews have to eat only kosher food? Clearly the answer is no.
The EU enshrines in law that a person can believe whatever they wish without descrimination. That does not just mean that one is free to practice one's beliefs, it also means that all beliefs are open to the same level of debate and questioning.
The Danish paper wasn't trying to attack or insult Islam; the cartoons may not have been appropriate in religious terms, but they were not designed to hurt Muslims. Europeans continually extend aid to Muslim countries; in the aftermath of the Asian Tsunami Europeans sent hundreds of millions of pounds, food and equipment to help people in Islamic countries and after the Pakistani Earthquake Europeans again sent help to Muslims. Would European governments and the European people do that if they wished to attack Islam?
Imagine if Europeans were to react to terrorist attacks in the manner we have seen in the last few days. What if after the July bombings in London Europeans took to the streets to demand that all relations with Muslim countries be severed and that all aid to Muslim countries be stopped? What if Europeans boycotted Muslim businesses? What if Europeans stormed the embassies of Islamic countries? The bombings in July were far worse than these cartoons, people were killed, yet we did not see such a reaction. Instead we see European governments actively try to foster better relations with Muslims and actually try to avoid extreme reactions.
People have said that Westerners must respect Islamic tradition and that is fair enough, but the West has no obligation to adopt Islamic traditions and rules. Muslims are freely allowed to practice their beliefs in the West; they are allowed to build mosques; they are allowed to seek to persuade people to convert to Islam and Islamic holy days and festivals are recognised and worked into law. That is respect.
The reaction we have seen will merely help to reinforce stereotypes of Islam and Muslims; that Islam is an intolerant religion and that Muslims are violent. It will help to divide Muslims and non-Muslims and cause yet more friction in an already troubled world. I do not wish to live in a world where people are segregated because of their religious beliefs; I don't want to live in a world where people fear and mistrust others because they are of a different religion; I don't want to live in a world where extremism and fanatacism are allowed to rule. The Muslim majority should make itself heard over the extremists and stand up and take Islam back from those who would seek to turn it into a vehicle for violence and hate. In that undertaking Muslims will find that non-Muslim Europeans are more than willing to help them build a peaceful society where respect, tolerance and acceptance are the order of the day.
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[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-02-05 21:05 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-05 21:51:33
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On 2006-02-05 21:45:24, joebmc wrote:
Oh come on their are thousands if not more non-muslims protesting about this war.
But i dont see any muslim complaining about the brutality of the beheadings being shown world wide.
Brutality is a part of war like i said...thats why muslims are so against this war like millions of other peace loving people on the planet...I don't see anyone complaining when a child gets shot by a u.s soilder in iraq?.so why should a muslims complain about a beheading?..Thats why muslims have stood up against this war from day one and said it was wrong.
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On 2006-02-05 21:45:24, joebmc wrote:
Somethings i really feel that muslims want to live in a muslim only world.
Isn't that the case with all religions?...most faiths would prefer a world domination....muslims and Islam are just a scapegoat for the wrongs caused in the world today...the west incites muslims then when they react everyone crys for help!
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Posted: 2006-02-05 21:54:01
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On 2006-02-05 21:40:44, axxxr wrote:
Why should muslims make a outcry about the beheadings?
Atleast to distance mainstream Islam from these terrorists ideologies.
If moderate muslims say those are terrorists who blow up people, they should come forward and protest against these goons who are defaming Islam.
And i dont think any damn reason is strong enough (not even the U.S invasion of Iraq) a reason to kill an innocent guy (whatever be his nationality or faith) in such a brutal manner. I can somewhat fathom the anger of the people who are against the U.S invasion of Iraq. But its not just Iraq, remember Daniel Pearl? He had nothing to do with Iraq. He was killed in Pakistan.
Quote:...What the u.s forces is doing in iraq is unjustified and unacceptable...most muslims feel and rightly so that the Iraqi's are suffering under occupation..
Where were these people when the Iraqis were suffering on the hands of Saddam. He's no saint either. Forget the 5000 kurds? Werent they Muslims? Or does the sentiments of Muslim hurt only whwen they're provoked by a non muslim? People talk about Abu Ghraib. It was a shameful act. Pathetic .. but have you seen Iraqi state videos of the execution of people? Seen videos of torture in iraqi prisons under Saddam? He practised all this as a part of his state policy... Not a single protest (or protests of similar proportions) from the middle eastern region during all these.
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend, thankfully, she left me before we met.[ This Message was edited by: whizkidd on 2006-02-05 21:11 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-05 22:05:10
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I dont know why this is so difficult to fathom.
Joe, you might not take offence, but millions do. Thats the way it is.
You want everyone to act like you are people like you, but I could say the same to you.
That photo of Moses, is just as bad, but we didn't draw it, and he is not our leading prophet.
Plus I didn't see a picture of a BOMB on it's head.
If a Christian doesn't take offence by a cartoon making fun of Jesus, thats fine with them, but it's still unacceptable in Islam.
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And even when a Muslim community fights for no war (like the huge protests in Bahrain) or when they are against 9/11 actions like the national protest against terrorism, the media doesn't show it!
You just don't know anything and then claim that we're doing nothing.
I'm tired of this thread. as soon as one point is made, you jump to another argument which has no relation (this is a reply to a few people).
Most people's arguments seem to be, If people dont care about what happens to us, why should we care about them.
As I said for the millionth time, Millions don't like it, if you dont understand why, too bad. I respect ALL prophets and will never offend any religion. (I might not agree with some religions, but I wont take the piss)
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The Cheapest UK Contracts Guaranteed![ This Message was edited by: amnesia on 2006-02-05 21:16 ]
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Posted: 2006-02-05 22:10:47
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