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@Prom1
you're right about moto and linux. in fact, about 95% of all smartphones sold by moto have the linux OS. the platform on some of them may be closed, but they're still technically smartphones. what's more, almost all their 'dumbphones' now use linux.





nokia isn't running the show on symbian now its open source, any more than motorola is running the show on linux
WM has only a miniscule market share in the smartphone market, well behind symban and linux. theses are the market shares as of Q3 2007. i doubt WM has more than quintupled their market share since then.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com[....]le-in-us-market-share-q3-2007/



[ This Message was edited by: Brightspark on 2008-06-25 00:55 ]
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Posted: 2008-06-25 01:41:52
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@Prom,

Bloody hell, that's got to be one of THE most detailed replies I've had on any forum. Thank you for your effort.

I did not read your links as the quotes were enough thanks. I did not know the OS was licensed as Ericsson was one of the founders of Symbian. Who is it licensed from? Is it Symbian Ltd?
I know what you are saying about the S60 and UIQ differences, it's like DOS then putting the Windows interface on yes? Perhaps I don't appreciate how deep they go as in the API's determine the Wireless standards supported. In the case of the P series though in the UK anyway, I don't know if the networks supported EDGE that much back in the P800 P900 day's? I know it was the tech for speed but not how widespread it was.

In regards to Motorola's linux phones, I only class a smart phone as one that I can install apps onto as these day's having a CPU and memory doesn't cut it. Otherwise no matter what OS it has it isn't any different to a phone with an OS that is open to developers. I am glad Motorola used it as it's OS was a total mess before. But if I can't store apps on it then it's not smart. If it's cracked then it's different but that's not standard and an improvement made by the user. As for the R380, that was a digital diary and phone IMO but I take your point.
Yes they are smart phones because they use a smart OS, but when you look at 'normal' phones these day's, installing apps is the only thing separating them. Looking at the new smart phone models they launched today/ yesterday, they are designed for the Far East market as they have no 3G but they do run the Linux OS however I don't know if they are open to devs or not?

As to your last point, those are my thoughts on what I have witnessed lately. I just see constant posts against SE lately. This thread has made it worst, a lot of people are leaving out the fact that Motorola and SE are providing UIQ code, and then stating as fact UIQ is dead! It won't stop anymore then S60 will, but they both will, they will both be changed to what ever this new standard is. This is just today, but I have read many ridiculous are false posts over the last month on this site.

And why apologise? Your weren't nasty in your posts.
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Posted: 2008-06-25 03:26:19
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I am not sure whether this point has been brought up. My understanding of the "open-source" is that it includes the Symbian core source code and the new UI source. I suppose this new UI will start from the existing S60 base and incorporates some UIQ or MOAP component.

Here is question. How far will the new UI encompass the functionality that is currently deployed to say a n-series? imo, the open-source for the UI portion will be quite restricted and only contains the base/core UI elements/apps that are sufficient to ensure 3rd party apps compatibility. If you look into an existing S60/UIQ/MOAP phone, I think you can categorise many of the functionalities as add-on "applications" which I think the foundation members will not open-sourced. For example for S60, gallery app, multimedia menu, camera/video app, music player, video editor, pc suite etc etc. If you look at S60 phones by Samsung you can see that these multimedia/imaging apps are different from Nokia's.


So there are still a lot of differentiation for the foundation members if they deploy this platform. For new comers who want to adopt the new UI platform, there are still some hurdles. Either the newcomer use the open-sourced base and start developing all the add-on "applications" themselves or they licensed those applications from somebody.

Somehow I think this will end up like what is happening to currently WM 6.1 platform i.e. manufacturers creating various apps/shells to differentiate from one another. The upside is many new 3rd party developer may come on board to develop for this new UI platform as now in addition selling to individuals these developers can also sell their products to the manufacturers that may not have those apps yet.




[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2008-06-25 03:55 ]
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Posted: 2008-06-25 04:39:07
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Yeah this will be no different really from the situation where Motorola and SE both use UIQ on their phones, or Nokia and Samsung both use S60. They both are used differently and appear different due to different applications, and shells, etc.

There will however now be more companies using this base, but in every other way it should remain as we know it now, except its likely the OS will be a lot better.
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Posted: 2008-06-25 05:09:04
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One interesting possibility is someone porting the Symbian core components to x86. Imagine booting it on your PC... Maybe future competition to Linux?
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Posted: 2008-06-25 05:33:38
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I think the main issue with UIQ and S60 is that APIs are only "half compatible" (i.e. at OS kernel level). All other libraries like UI or application services are totally incompatible. With the new UI, I think everyone uses the same set of complete APIs thus making all applications written for the new platform compatible for all devices that use this new UI.

I think the big question mark is who will fund current and future development of this platform once the foundation is set up. I bet there will be some catch somewhere. I doubt Nokia would want to fund the further development of symbian OS and distribute it for free without getting some sort of returns somewhere from the adopters of this new plaform.


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Posted: 2008-06-25 07:07:19
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As a Nokia investor I receive lots of 'privileged stuff' (mostly crap thou) from them (Nokia). (actually most of your posts in here are just as much crap, but I guess, I have to put up with it if I want to make a buck or 2) . I don't really bother to post any serious stuff in a open forum like this (what for?), but after seeing how confused some of you are I have decided to brake my own rule. After all (some) of you chaps helped me last year (here and there) with my decisions).
Now, do you people/children (delete what not applicable) really thing Nokia is 'Christmas Father' or what? In the business world nothing 'just happens' for a 'good cause'. Nokia was so successful with the s60 OS, they ended up paying more to Symbian (royalties) then what they got from them. They had no choice but to buy them out. For the next 18-24 months will be a loss (for Nokia) but after that the savings should even out the expense they should have incurred.
As for the open system decision, just think a bit further,S60 rule Symbian, Nokia rule S60 + derivatives, symbian goes open kettle: investors, developers, users, etc jump in - FOR FREE , Who stands to win? (Nokia shares went up after the announcement - just in case some kids battle to follow what I am saying.) I personally believe the time to buy Nokia shares is not here yet - I'll wait till ‘s60-Touch’ comes out and then I will decide.
Never the less, you chaps keep brain storming.
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Posted: 2008-06-25 10:07:58
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Some one mentioned should go they own way, i dont think so i think sony ericsson is doing the right thing given the limited option it had and i think paris will come out with the new OS in europe n may be with uiq for asia n china. And C905 is proof that sony ericsson is working on java and flash with the new A200
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Posted: 2008-06-25 11:04:08
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When the foundation is up and running, all of Symbian's employees will become Nokia employees.

The new platform will be backward compatible with S60. Any foundation members that don't want to wait until the platform is open source can start developing with S60 right now - as mentioned in the webcast on the symbian foundation website.

Initially, the symbian foundation platform is likely to be pretty much S60 until other developers start contributing to it.

Where are the vast majority of S60 and Symbian platform developers now working? Yes, they are all at Nokia.

The new platform may be open source, but in the short term I think it will be Nokia who call the shots.

It looks like Nokia want to re-position themselves as a services business and it is in their best interests if a large percentage of the market is using the same platform. Even more so if it is a plaform that they are familiar with. With the new open source platform, everyone else is making compatible devices for them, so they can concentrate on the services and applications.
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Posted: 2008-06-25 14:35:19
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Thank you @Brightspark, @makbil, and @apolloa for the kind remarks, and to @apolloa for understanding my reasoning.

@apolloa, my apology was because I rambled and singled you out, intensely - which to me is wrong. Thank you for understanding.

Now onto our intelligent rebuttal !

@apolloa, I totally understand that Motorola's JUIX/MotoMAGX in current iteration, being closed, you find as not being a smartphone. To be honest our definitions betweeen a "platform/feature phone" and a "smartphone" will NEED to be redifined by years end. MIDP3 will change platform/feature phones into smartphones - alowing data within a single JVM from multiple apps to share their data, to relay them simultaneously, user choice on telling which J2ME apps to launch on FULL-OFF to BOOTUP. Huge times ahead, and with , Motorola, RIM, Nokia at the head of the arrow it'll strike pretty hard. IF makes Shiho - C905 - Firmware upgradeable to support MIDP3 at the end of this year (its specs point EXACTLY that way), then it is POSSIBLE this'll BE 's flaghip smartphone.

Motorola. As a company with partnership dealings, I don't like them at all. They've already screwed over Sendo over UIQ (in the end buying them out for the mindshare intelligence of their employees). They've also screwed over another large phone manufacturer over hardware partnership around the same time they did with Sendo. I see this trend continuing with Andriod. Until recently, and after their Andriod affiliation, Motorola couldn't ship a UMTS phone with JUIX/MotoMAGX Linux OS. It was quite capable, the OS, yet Motorola couldn't get it done. I have a feeling they'll use the intellectual properties - under the open license - for their own ends (if they survive in the wireless business long enough) for future products, and not share back.

WM. They have the $$$$ and the marketing strong-arm to PUSH for dominance. Yet nobody likes being pushed around, especially Europeans - and the European Union is already been giving Microsoft a serious flogging! Unless their OS is radically revamped (ease of use, location of functions in the menu being standard, etc) I don't see that OS growing any further in the next 1-2yrs. There are 3 things that'll change their growth.

1. Open Document initiative.
- If ppl begin to use the Open Document extension significantly enough, and corporations begin to as well (by default from using Linux servers, and db apps) then the NEED for MS Word will begin to lesson. It's tie in, towards the WM platform will weaken. Or this SHOULD.

2. HTC! They have MADE the WM Pro/Standard what it IS today in: Sales Growth, product choices, and in OEM branding for providers and competitors alike. HTC is also part of the Open Handset Alliance = Andriod. And you can BET if HTC makes significant sales on the retail, subsidized, and OEM markets WM will be dropped in a hot-second! Motorola in the past was the darling child for WM but CheiChei screwed up in MPx (or MPX100) quality and they needed to cancel production.

Shoot I forgot my 3rd point, lol.
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Posted: 2008-06-25 15:18:43
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