Manufacturer Discussion : Nokia : Lumia 1020 vs 808 PV vs any potential rival.
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> Lumia 1020 vs 808 PV vs any potential rival.
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On 2013-10-18 17:13:59, false_morel wrote:
I just bought a new 350€ lens for my DSLR. I would have easily got instead an 808 and saved myself all the weeping.
I know this will probably sound cocky, but I think I have to say it.
When it comes to photography as a field of art and expression of creativity, a DSLR becomes a must.
Even these new and trendy mirrorless ILC cameras, even the expensive new ones with full format sensors, would still be limited in several aspects. These are again a compromise between portability and functionality. These are meant to replace DSLRs for vacations mainly where average people would rather carry small and light cameras while still getting same quality of a DSLR. Only that they will be limited to general use.. And also handling and ergonomics would be compromised.
Cameraphones are great all in one devices. But with many compromises especially when it comes to photography.
These are meant to capture those moments where one usually doesn't carry a camera along.
Dining evenings with some friends, hitting a party or the club, at home where something spontaneous happens, especially with kids and pets, and some general activities where nothing is planned worth getting a stand-alone camera to document or capture that certain event..
And certainly not for photography enthusiasts and hobbyists who indulge themselves in the arty side of photography.. Going for photography trips, spending some afternoon or evening, or a one day weekend photography sessions.. Spending time developing the RAWs and printing big or sharing on a dedicated platform..
I never use my cameraphone to spend time thinking about framing and composition, and some creative artistic motive. It's useless to waste such energy and time on such a limited device.
Almost all of the photos I end capturing with my phone are private. Capturing one private spontaneous moment to share online or keep as a memory.. Sometimes one comes across a certain happening on the streets or in a park for instance, some funny or special worth capturing and saving.. And could be publicly shared as well.. But that's it..
And judging from most of the photos I see on smartphone forums and mobile platforms, these lack the story and the context. Poor framing, or poor composition. No meaning to convey, or could have conveyed in a much better way.
Creativity is limited by the equipment of course, but also there are some cool stuff that could be achieved. Rarely seen however.
I think instead of focusing on some the quality a smartphone nowadays achieves of a bright sunny day scene, one ought to learn and practice the art of capturing a good motive.
On 2013-10-18 11:48:42, mlife wrote:
As I've said before, other than making large prints (which most of us never even do), the 808`s abilities are overkill. For posting online, email and even small prints $5 says NO ONE can tell the difference /much less "cry"over it...
I totally disagree on this point.
A reminder to all of us maybe, Nokia developed this PV technology not in order to scale those 38 and 34 MP photos back to 5 MP! It would be like pointing to one's left ear with one's right hand.
The purpose and the aim were the lossless zoom.
The PV mode appeals only to photography enthusiasts and it's of a lesser priority compared to the zoom feature which is a game changer for average smartphone users (vast majority of the user base) who can now zoom without losing any quality; with those zoomed in images being on par in quality to what other high-end smartphones deliver.
If it were only about quality of the original photos, using the same sensor technology and size, manufactured directly at 5 MP or 8 MP would have lead to better quality.
And speaking of these 5MP oversampled photos, they do make a difference in low light where noise becomes a decisive factor to the image's quality, and especially detail.
Otherwise, quality-wise, true, at a bright day for instance it's nothing to talk about given the use cases of the resulted images.
And here's where the camera features come in. SmartCam in the 1020 for instance enables one to take photos otherwise not possible without. Removing moving objects at the instance, great for group portraits, and the action feature.. Other high-end Androids have these features now, but the 808 doesn't. And I think this is a bigger and much more significant difference to that of a difference in quality.
Also the SS manual mode allows great creativity whereas the 808 is very limited in this sense.
Same goes to Xenon flash allowing photos otherwise not possible with LED. Not just about IQ here.
I think what the Lumia 1020 stands out for is not its superior noise and detail quality which was proven superior to any other cameraphone, nor its overall IQ which was proven on par with other current high-end smartphones, but it's the lossless zoom, low light photography, Xenon flash, manual SS, SmartCam, ability to zoom later as the phone saves the original full res photo.. These are the factors that make the 1020 the cameraphone to beat. Not the IQ.
What 's funnier in all your posts is that your repetitive speech does not apply to the practice !
Never seen here or any other place a single photo that shows your photography to the field of art and expression of creativity.
You say It's useless to waste such energy and time on such a limited device , all right... Let's pretend to believe it !
But let the facts: I know this will probably sound cocky , but I think I have to say it.
The truth is that this is an excuse to camouflage its utter inability to actually get a good image through a mobile phone !
Sassho , Cu015170 , 9_Destiny and Sylwester ( just to name the best ) here on Esato continually prove that with steady hands , sensitivity and photographic talent can get great pictures with cell phones.
You with your speech repetitive and full of flaws , shows that knows little of photography both in theory and mostly also in practice, as demonstrated in these three images:
http://www.esato.com/phonepho[....]a/n8_00/2011011308368F1sX3.jpg
http://www.esato.com/phonepho[....]son/u1i/201012081917ZlA344.jpg
http://www.esato.com/phonepho[....]a/n8_00/20101208191211GMlU.jpg
All of you who question me, Cu015170 and others concerning the 808 and our knowledge in photography, never proved in theory (with photographic knowledge) and also in practice (with photos captured by you) we're wrong and you're right ! Why is that ? The answer is more than obvious.
Finally , if you abhor both the picture on mobile phones , why the hell did you join the Esato ?
If you do not know citizen , this is a forum dedicated to
mobile phones !
If you love both digital cameras and cellular think will never replace dedicated cameras ,
this is not your place !
P.S (1): Funny... Keeps saying that 1020 is the best cameraphone , but never had a hand in 1020 , much less tested against cameraphones too... You as a photographer is one regrets , but as a comedian is spectacular !
P.S (2): Please someone who has hands on the 1020 and 808 could opine on this topic, with something that is really healthy ?
No more (do not waste my time with you more) !!!
[ This Message was edited by: Sonysta on 2013-10-19 06:55 ]
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Posted: 2013-10-19 07:45:28
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On 2013-10-18 11:48:42, mlife wrote:
On 2013-10-18 10:39:00, Bonovox wrote:
Cry with envy?? You really think people are actually going to cry about it?? Goodness sake
LMAO.... I gotta go with sean on this one! totally over the top, c'mon bro - what we're talking about here is literally at a finite level.... NO ONE (not even cu, imo) is going to have 1020 users crying with jealousy, cut the drama.
Sure, I too think the 808 is a superior imaging device but lets try and keep the debate realistic. Lets not try and dump the 1020 to the bottom of the heap just because old nokia over engineered a device most "normal"people have no idea even was ever made.
If in fact there was no 808, hands down- I would already own the 1020 (still even toying with the idea actually).
As I've said before, other than making large prints (which most of us never even do), the 808`s abilities are overkill. For posting online, email and even small prints $5 says NO ONE can tell the difference /much less "cry"over it...
When I said to cry tears of anger or envy, was not speaking in a literal sense, real ... And yes in the sense of expressing annoyance !
Perhaps the fault was actually mine... Because for your comment and the rest, I think you Americans and Europeans do not know or do not use the sense figuratively, that is the kind of language that applied in my comment.
I apologize for the conflict of culture and just reiterate that it should not always take the literal meaning of the word in my comments !
Have a great weekend !
P.S: Weep advocates of 1020 "Fake PureView"... 808 PureView is the best cameraphone in the world
[ This Message was edited by: Sonysta on 2013-10-19 07:15 ]
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Posted: 2013-10-19 08:10:00
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No art is to do a very good photo of the DSLR................art is to do a very good smartphone camera photo !
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Posted: 2013-10-19 09:20:51
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this is getting pathetic. Sonysta so your now saying your a photography expert and we are all not?? Just cos we don't own an 808?? Your images are nothing amazing to my eyes,in fact they are nothing I couldn't achieve with a cheap compact or camera phone. You come here to criticize others on their skills. I have steady hands in imaging and have taken many great shots and have a lot of knowledge. Just because you own an 808 it doesn't make you an expert.
_________________
Don't be an iSheep,follow the exclusive sheep!!
[ This Message was edited by: Bonovox on 2013-10-19 08:36 ]
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Posted: 2013-10-19 09:32:00
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On 2013-10-19 09:20:51, Sylwester wrote:
No art is to do a very good photo of the DSLR................art is to do a very good smartphone camera photo !
The art in a photo is not how to take crisp and detailed Images. This is the technical part. The easy part anyone could learn.
The artistic part is to compose a motive with context. Let it convey a meaning, a message, or a story.
And to achieve this of course mastering the technical part is essential.
A DSLR allows way more room to play with the hardware giving whole new dimensions for creativity and expression.
It gives control over depth of field. Over perspective. Full control over exposure. Choice over specialty lenses and focal lengths. Optical viewfinder TTL. Phase detection AF. Ergonomics and better handling. High ISO. The world of flashes opens another dimension of possibilities and creativity.
In brief it's a whole different world to a point and shoot cameraphone where someone would shoot a random landscape midday under bright sun light with poor framing and comes bragging about the quality of the photo.
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Posted: 2013-10-19 10:22:55
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You misunderstand me! this is how to use google translator
I'm not talking about art..................
I mean the more difficult to make a good photo of a mobile phone than a DSLR and it is a feat
The Polish language is ambiguous art
art-effort
art-art
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Posted: 2013-10-19 13:28:44
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On 2013-10-19 13:28:44, Sylwester wrote:
You misunderstand me! this is how to use google translator
I'm not talking about art..................
I mean the more difficult to make a good photo of a mobile phone than a DSLR and it is a feat
The Polish language is ambiguous art
art-effort
art-art
Are trying to hint that pulling quality photos out of a cameraphone makes the better feat compare to pulling a quality photo out of a DSLR?
If so, then you got it the other way around.
Using auto on a DSLR is meaningless in almost all situations. While on a smartphone most of the time auto deliver the best it can. One just needs to point and shoot.
Other than that, what is there on a cameraphone to fiddle with anyway so that one needs a lot of effort to get all the parameters right? Choosing from up to six stops of ISO? What else really? There is nothing that sets any challenge. And smartphones are getting better and better on auto (except for Nokia apparently going from bad to worse) and with new features such as OIS facilitating handling and other software add-ons automating many things such HDR, Panorama, action shot, etc..
And still as noted, the technical part is the easy part while using a DSLR. Also the post processing is not challenging. One learns how certain things are done and does them again and again.
The challenging part is to pull out an artistic touch with the photo. Make it a peace of art not just capture some random scene with high detail and low noise.
An example: Take that second photo CU posted out the recent three two pages back.
With the sun starting to set, and those pigeons spread over the wood sea deck. A pretty scene.
First thing the position of the sun in the middle of the frame is very obstructive. Better here to put the sun at one of the thirds crossing. Also better to scale the whole thing according to rule of thirds. I had trop the image to achieve that.
Next would be straighting it up, both rotating, and straightening the poles since the sensor wasn't parallel to the perpendicular of the horizon.
I also flipped horizontally. Makes much more sense and gives a positive notion instead of the declining deck from right to left conveying negative notion.
Then I removed the clouds. They simply didn't fit the scene. Took too much attention of the poles, pigeons, and their reflections on the water. Could have made a better job at this but wasn't willing to spend time on the thing.
Also removed the people at the background and an distant airplane in the middle of the scene which also constituted a diversion.
Then I fiddled a little with the exposure as well. Darkened the shadows and strengthened the blacks. I wanted the pigeons completely black shadows both them and their reflections. Takes times to perfect as I will have to use the brush not just fiddle with the overall blacks. Also highering the contrast helped a bit.
Also lowered the highlights a bit since the sun was exploding behind the poles.
Then the even more difficult task: playing with the colors. The image screamed for color corrections.
Started with the WB which was way on the warm side. Took it back to its natural position.
Then applied a bit of vibrance and saturation to sincee the sky colors were weak.
Then I had to fiddle with the blues, purples, and magentas in separate in order to achieve as natural sky as possible. Still a lot better job could be made applying a filter, but this would take more time.
Applied a bit of clarity as well (a sort of sharpening). This was for the details on the surface of the water. A perfect job would be applying another filter to that area alone but was not gonna spend the time on it.
The sea surface was a bit cold, but acceptable. Could be adjusted as well.
Result:
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Posted: 2013-10-19 20:31:44
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Yes but what is annoying me is that Sonysta has this notion that the 808 beats EVERY single compact on the market which is complete bulls**t.
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Posted: 2013-10-19 20:41:17
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^ all in all you made a mess out of it
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Posted: 2013-10-19 20:41:17
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On 2013-10-19 07:45:28, Sonysta wrote:
What 's funnier in all your posts is that your repetitive speech does not apply to the practice !
Never seen here or any other place a single photo that shows your photography to the field of art and expression of creativity.
You say It's useless to waste such energy and time on such a limited device , all right... Let's pretend to believe it !
But let the facts: I know this will probably sound cocky , but I think I have to say it.
The truth is that this is an excuse to camouflage its utter inability to actually get a good image through a mobile phone !
Sassho , Cu015170 , 9_Destiny and Sylwester ( just to name the best ) here on Esato continually prove that with steady hands , sensitivity and photographic talent can get great pictures with cell phones.
So you think I'm doing all this because I am not able to get good images from my cameraphone? So I come here and start attack 808 owners out of jealously? Is this what you basically saying?
The latter two photos you quoted were for comparing the Satio and N8. A debate we had over here a long time ago about low light capability of the Satio and the N8.
As to the first photo, would you enlighten us on what's wrong in it?
Finally , if you abhor both the picture on mobile phones , why the hell did you join the Esato ?
If you do not know citizen , this is a forum dedicated to mobile phones !
If you love both digital cameras and cellular think will never replace dedicated cameras , this is not your place !
You said it: Esato is a mobile phones forum. Not an image hosting website.
And smartphones aren't just about photos. Otherwise the Lumia 1020 or the 808 would be the ones selling ten of millions instead of the iPhone and the Galaxy.
Actually, in a smartphone nowadays, the camera isn't even the most important part. Even for photography enthusiasts. How many of these hobbyists and also professionals own an 808 or a 1020? Almost none. Most own iPhones.
So this smartphone photography thing is all blown out proportions by some members here anyway.
In the era of SE and N-series, the hardware was the spotlight of mobile phones. SE camera centric devices weren't even smartphones.
The camera back then counted for way more significance than now.
Other than that, I really still can't tell how one would rely on a cameraphone to practice the hobby of photography!
P.S (1): Funny... Keeps saying that 1020 is the best cameraphone , but never had a hand in 1020 , much less tested against cameraphones too... You as a photographer is one regrets , but as a comedian is spectacular !
Oh btw I did try the 808, fully at the last Photokina with a whole imaging setup made by Nokia for testing the phone.
And the 1020 was just released over here. And too pricy at the moment. Not worth it really.. Would get one later when the prices come down.. I'd save the money for real equipment instead.
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Posted: 2013-10-19 20:54:53
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