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^^ Add to that:

the Famous, Glorious Opera Mini 4. even Symbian users make use of that as their phone web browser

There are also lots of great 3D games for J2ME. maybe ROSAN could elaborate this better
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Posted: 2007-12-08 12:21:07
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@max_wedge:

KD Player is a step forward for Java (but no equaliser? ). But still long way to go before it can match native symbian app like CorePlayer or Alon MP3Dictaphone.
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Posted: 2007-12-08 12:27:29
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that will never happen, but imho JAVA will provide them a run for their money. Blackberry have proven that J2ME can be used as a fully fledged OS, though they have used non-standard apis to do so. Eventually the generic J2ME standard will have the same type's of integrated api's that blackberry has.

But that doesn't mean s60, UIQ or WM will fade away. What it does mean, much of the functionality traditionally reserved for smartphones will become available in non-smartphones. JSR75 is a prime example, before it was introduced smartphone advocates laughed at the idea of direct file system access via j2me.

Nokia will never embrace j2me to the degree SE and Motorola will, just as SE and Motorola will never embrace UIQ to the same extent as Nokia use s60 across their range. Handsets are handsets, and ultimately the end user will buy phones that have the functionality and style they desire, and rarely will they care, or even know, whether it's a traditional smartphone or a "java smartphone".



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Posted: 2007-12-08 12:35:23
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lack of equaliser is a j2me api restriction currently.

Other than that, I don't find much in the way of functionality in smartphone media players that's missing in KD Player tbh.

There is the issue of non standard format support but in my experience, even on WM or s60 phones, format support (especially for video) is sketchy and I usually find it's simpler to convert media before using it on my mobile devices. It saves me the pain of loading up videos only to find half of them won't play properly. When you convert videos specifically for a device, you always get flawless performance. To get broad based format support on WM for example I often find I need three different players to cover everything. And nothing that supports flv as yet. So it's far simpler to just convert to suit as needed.

An advantage of JAVA is it plays any format that the phone supports. In s60 and WM, I've had the situation where my favourite mediaplayer won't play a natively supported format!

In due course, A200 handsets will be powerful enough to run j2me media players capable of decoding on the fly via software, currently it's handled by hardware (whcih is why j2mr players are limited only to handset supported formats)
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Posted: 2007-12-08 12:46:52
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max_wedge:



Well, this archilles heel of java - performance. Today, many native WM/S60 (multimedia/cpu intensive) apps are struggling with performance. If these apps are develop with Java then they will crawl to a standstill. So until the time when cpu speed can outstrip the app needs, imo, Java will still take a backseat. I dont see this happening soon unless we can see big improvement in cpu speed/battery technology.



[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-12-08 12:28 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-08 13:26:32
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I think, that JP needs two things to become more powerfull and ready to kick Symbian or WM

1- Support for Add-ons, little software code that is not JAVA programs, they are just add-ons, these little app's can change or improve the functionality of the JP it self, for example, you may change the default media player lets say to make KM player plays the media if you slected a media file ( or any other Java App ). rather than run the KM player and open the media file from it...
2- ability to run not just JAVA software, but C programmed software too, I mean lets have more Develping tools, as not all peoples know JAVA, and AFAIK C programmers are much more than JAVA, thats why even Symbian OS now is on the lineto support C programming.

I know, these two points will make JP to look like Symbian or WM, but limitaions ( there's no software that can control the OS, only add-ons, and these add-ons must be approved first to be able to be used or it will be blocked by the phone )
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Posted: 2007-12-08 13:40:04
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mib you are right performance is the achilles heel, but when you look at how much better K800 runs kd player compared to K750, I don't think the improvement in hardware needed is going to be that much.

J2ME runs on it's own chip, so some of the performance problems with apps running on WM or s60 in the same space as the main os just don't exist on the java platform. Likewise performance issues in JAVA don't impact on the rest of the phone. IE: Java doesn't bring the rest of the phone down when it crashes.

_________________
File System Tweaks for the K750 K750 Tricks
K800 Tips and Themes
Max's K800 Page

[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-12-08 13:15 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-08 13:49:21
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i tend to disagree here matey one of the reasons why WM or Symbian apps struggle for performance was the fact that developers are having trouble for writing the efficient and ram-friendly algorithms for the program so that it wont eat too much CPU speed not RAM storage. in other words C++ has some flaws in performance especially the infamous memory leak in applications where the native symbian compiler hardly solves - this would need developers to develop a separate application to correct this. with Java, applications run more efficient. ram and cpu usage is far better than Symbian thanks to the special and very useful JVM feature: garbage collection - don't you wonder why a J2ME phone with a 100Mhz processor even beats a 220Mhz Smartphone in interface speed? for example running face warp in J2ME takes lesser time and is more efficient and stable in ram usage compared to the S60 version of that
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Posted: 2007-12-08 14:12:19
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@max

Java may have improved from k750 to k8. I have tested the java games in K850 and I can tell you that these are still a very long way to match the n-gage demo games I have in my N95.

Does the K850 runs Java on a dedicated chip?

You are right about Java not bringing down the phone. But S60/Symbian has advanced to a very stable platform. Believe it or not, in 9 months I have my N95, it has never crash to the point I need to take out battery to reboot the phone. It has on occasions rebooted itself when free RAM gets too low and this is not a fault but a built-in mechanism. I know this because everytime this happened I am either not using phone or while I am sleeping.

So it is not so true to say that Java would provide a more stable platform. Look at the issues that I have seen floating around about K850.



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Posted: 2007-12-08 14:20:22
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Badly written code whether java/c++ cause memory leaks. And java is not perfect in garbage collection either. Symbian has its own garbage collector but because its capability (i.e. more complex) there are bound to be more issues.

You mentioned it. Whether you realised it or not, just the fact that Java requires a JVM already proved that it is much less efficient than native code.



I dont think this is due to J2ME at all.



the true reason is that java program is usually a stripped down version of the original native app


[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-12-08 13:39 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-08 14:39:13
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