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Well, Damian talked about improving the N8's flash capability, as there is a smaller Xenon flash module installed on it than the average. But never talked about fixing a major flaw like that!
This is incorrect color rendering. There is something wrong in the algorithem implemented by Nokia to render colors and correct the white balance!

And actually, the N8 doesn't perform bad at all with flash photos!
Just look at that indoors photo of the universal bank and the dumbles beside it.
The same lighting conditions, same range to that of the "Blue Curtain" photo, yet, it delivered one excellent quality photo!
And it beat the Satio in that scene.
Only thing about the Satio, it distributes the flash more uniformly and not concentrated in one area of the photo.
Despite that, the N8 got the right exposure, and delivered a higher-quality photo on all aspects!

With the Curtain photo, at first, when I point the N8 towards the curtain, it views it well.
Then a second or two, it turns green!
Funny, though, if I shoot half the curtain with half teh wall beside it, the N8 performs quite well.. That's because the wall i all white and the N8 goes for different approach than with an all blue scene..

Realy weird. But good that with the N8 one needs no flash in such conditions. Without flash,by adjusting the white balance manually, it delivers some excellent photos as shown above..
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Posted: 2010-12-12 03:53:57
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Yes Bono, I believe there is nothing wrong with N8's flash photos.. I agree with Jake that the flash could haven been more powerful or just as Damian suggested that some driver updates would improve it.. But for now, it's more than good.

That major flaw in white balancing, I consider it an exceptoin. It's nothing that one has to worry about. It couldn't be reproduced that easily by any flash use..

Still, this should be addressed and fixed..

Edit: Added the "not"!

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Posted: 2010-12-13 02:55:10
Edit : Quote


Not sure if it's my imagination but the flash seems to be quite clever. The camera sensor seems to sense how far you are from your subject & the flash fires at the right level depending on distance.
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Posted: 2010-12-13 18:51:43
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Yeah, they were taken in different times. But that doesn´t mean a thing here. They´ve got exactly the same exposure:

1s * ISO 100 = 100 ISO * s

1/5s * ISO 500 = 100 ISO * s.

Perfectly comparable shots. The angle difference is merely an artistic one. It doesn´t interfere with the technical comparison.

Anyway, some things don´t change, like the street gas lamps. They are exactly the same.

We can see that the N8 has a vastly superior optics, which provide much more resolved resolution than Satio´s unit. You can see that by the sharpness of light sources at night. Light spots in Satio´s samples look a bit fuzzy, and that´s not a misfocus issue. In the N8 samples, these spots look perfectly round and sharp. That´s why people use to complain about Satio´s camera and to compare then to some 5mpixel cameraphones. I guess it´s resolved resolution in quite low for a 12 mpixel sensor.

Anyway, I reckon that the Satio shot is a better representation of the scene when looked downsized to match my display res. N8´s advantage only shows if you look at them at the max res.

Besides that, the n8 tends to overexposure pics at night. Sometimes you need to select -1,5 EV in order to get the scene right.

I´ve bought another Satio last week. I was not satisfied with N8´s shots. I´ll soon post some shoot out pics of these two.

The N8 simply kills the chroma noise, so all its high-ISO shots lack saturation. Tha Satio is better in this regard, IMO.

I am confident that Satio´s main problem is poor optics. Its lacks resolution and it´s also prone to both flare and chromatic fringing. But I prefer Sony´s approach when it comes to noise reduction. You can always diminish the noise levels with Photoshop or similar programs.

It´s weird to think that Damian Dinning has said that his team prefer to render N8´s pics good for post-processing.

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Posted: 2010-12-13 19:11:06
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More noise does not mean better quality. These are not my words... Are Damian´s.

Look what I was saying about the N8: Its shot has almost no chroma noise. That´s not realistic.

The N8 leaves the luminescent noise intact, but simply kills the chroma noise. Try to take a high ISO shot from an object colored red, like a red carpet or a snooker table cover.

The N8 renders the red in high ISO shots like it was plain red, with a lot of added saturation to compensate for the chroma noise reduction.

And I do not agree that it has more detail than Satio´s shot in this case. In fact, not only I see more detail on Satio´s sample, but I also prefer SE´s approach when it comes to noise reduction. All that chroma noise helps to mantain the saturation and the colour nuances at higher ISO levels.

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Posted: 2010-12-13 19:42:18
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Besides that:

The N8 preview is far from accurate. You cannot guide yourself by its preview. The resulting picture often come out different from what you thought it would come judging by the camera preview (for low light, no flash shots) - IT SEEMS TO APPLY A KIND OF DYNAMIC RANGE OPTIMIZATION during its post-processing (see details below);

Pics look a lot warmer in its display than what they look like in a well calibrated PC display (typical of Samsung´s AMOLED screens);

Manual ISO is useless for low light shots without flash - there´s no way to change the SS;

If you select the Night Mode, the SS decreases to 1/8s, but if you choose ISO 100, than it goes up to 1/15s. If you then try to change the EV up, it gets darker! (maybe a bug). If you change it down, it gets brighter! LOL.

The flash is way too cold in most cases. Sometimes it increases the ISO to 800, resulting in poor quality and overexposed pics (in other words, it increases the ISO without the need to);

I don´t know about your countries, but at least here in Brazil those street gas lamps look like orange, and not yellow like the N8 tends to color them. That´s why I guess that the Satio´s auto White Balance is more accurate than N8´s. If you select the Sunny for night pics (that´s right, selecting sunny as a solution) then it gets way too orange.

But guess what! If you decrease the EV compensation to, let´s say, -1,5 (and the ISO get lowerd as well), then those gas lamps get orange, the correct way! Try it yourself. Unfortunately, then we don´t have suffiently slower SS to play with)...

It´s horrible having to enter the photo gallery everytime juts to be able to zoom in a pic.

The N8 is also applying some kind of Dynamic Range optimization in order to compensate for the lack of slower SS. See the example below. The ambient light was extremely dimmed:

ISO 559, SS 1/8s:



First of all, the chroma noise distribution here is just awful. It has a stripe pattern throughout the frame.

Now, two Satio shots. Evenly distributed noise, more realistic depicted enviroment. The ambient light was rendering the room more or less that dark. I could barely distinguish object colors. It was all monotonic, and not like the way the N8 depicted it. With Satio we can see the light halo from the lamp in a much better way that in the N8 shot.

The N8 has a robotic post-processing algorith for indoor, flash-free, pics.

Besides that, look how the N8 ISO 559 shot look much brighter than the Satio shot, even with lower ISO speed (same SS). It´s clearly applying a Dynamic Range Compensation.

Further, Satio´s shots have even correctly depicted the ruler teeth (even the ISO 800 shot), whereas the N8 couldn´t, despite it´s bigger sensor and resolved resolution (it does have a smaller focal lenght, but it gets more or less compensated by the greater resolution of its lens), and being used at a lower ISO speed. That´s too weird, don´t you think?

ISO 640, SS 1/8s:



ISO 800, SS 1/8s:



If the Satio had great optics, then it would have been a f*ckin awesome cameraphone. One to be remembered for a long time. Even thought, I reckon it´s still a great contender. I prefer shooting with a Satio when I am indoors than shooting with the N8.

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Posted: 2010-12-13 19:55:24
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First of all, regarding that exposure equivalence, what does it bring if the two shots have same exposure values but totally different results?!

For instacnce, take this exampe:


Consider that each one coming from different camera. How could you compare the cameras by those shots?!
Completely different results. Same with huge ISO difference..

Cameras are compared at a given scene by shooting at the same exposure factors. That is, same ISO, same aperture, and same SS.

The issue with Satio-N8 nightshots, we have two different aproaches. We aren't comparing the quality here. Because it's out of question that the N8 is of higher quality.
However, due to limited manual control settings, we are bound with two automatic approaches.

As to the timing, angle, and position, how do those factors not play any role?!
You may think relying on bare eyes that those are two same conditions. However, even the some humidity and temperature changes could affect the end result! And of course the angle and range shot from!!

As to nightshots, yes, the N8 tends to overexpose teh scenes!
And at some specific conditions gets a much f*cked up white balance.. (The only flaw I found in N8 so far).

On the other hand, despite the 1 sec SS, the Satio does underexpose some scenes at times. Other than that, it suffers with both noise and loss of detail the darker the scene is. Not to mention, that at extreme conditions the whole color rendering gets all f*cked up..

All one has to do with some N8 shots is to lower the EV a bit..
Anyway, I've shot many scenes as I went hiking last night after midnight.. To be posted soon.



Killing the chroma noise is all healthy! Killing the limunance noise isn't.

Anyway, that is not a lack of saturation. The contrary, over-saturation due to over-exposure. You got it the other way around.



Very wrong! Satio's aggressive noise algorithm leaves much less to nothing for any program to handle those noises. Already the details are washed out to big extent!

Satio's noise reduction is more user-friendly.. As amateurs and users not into photography wont be in need to use any post-processing.
However, on the N8, even if the noise left as it is, it's more than acceptable.



This is called the profi approach.

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You probably meant: "Less noise does not mean better quality"..

And yes Damian is more than right on this.
And this applies directly to the Satio. In good lighted scenes, it produces less noise than the N8, however, horrible detail and other compromised stuff..



I really fail to understand this claim of yours!
How could chromatic noise add any good effects?!
As I said, some prefer to have some luminance noise effects.. But chromatic noise is always unnatural and ugly.



In the earlier post you said the N8 lacks color saturation. Why is it now adding for the same for some compensation?!

Anyway, shooting anything at high ISO would over-saturate it and add some artificial vivid colors..



That Satio shot was simply horibble.
N8 produced less noise and more detail. LESS NOISE AND MORE DETAIL.
Other than that, the Satio shot doesn't even resemble that granite shelf in my room!
Didn't even come close. Turned all orange and extremely noisy with loss of details!

That was a huge win for the N8.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to your last post,

I agree about the N8 live view and AMOLED postview..

About the camera intrerface, Nokia promised the N8 is receiving a new one with next major upgrade..

About the flash, I disagree. That is not cold.
Check the indoors pic of the bank and dumbles above.
The Satio came up with some non-existing coloring on the ground and other wrongly presented bright colored areas in that photo.
The N8 produced an extremely realistic photo on other hand. And yet again, this time with less noise and more detail.

Last but not least, as to the Satio-N8 low light comparison you posted,

- Those chromatic stripes are called banding noise and are caused by aggressive algorithm to brighten the scene up at post-processing.
- Satio almost produced a white/black photo and you prefer this approach to the N8's?!!
- I would take that N8 photo over any of those two Satio's any day. Even with the price of that banding noise and excessive noise.
- If you want a darker or a less noisy image, just play with the EV a bit before shooting and you'd end up with the Satio's approach yet better result. No big deal.

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Posted: 2010-12-14 11:47:44
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Man, you´ve taken an example with moving subjects. Mine has none. Is it that difficult to spot?

Besides that, in order to freeze the water like that, we would need variable aperture. We would need a very small aperture in order to get slower SS without over-exposing daylight shots.



I wish we could compare the N8 and the Satio both at ISO 100 and 1s of SS. TOO BAD WE CAN´T. So my intention was to compare the best that both can deliver, in terms of equivalent exposures. Is it that difficult to spot?



LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Humidity and temperature would interfere with those shots?! Sorry, man, now you´re starting to become a true comedian.

It is clear that it was night time. It was a clearly dry weather. We don´t even have snow in Brazil. For the provided SS, aperture and ISO, the sky would be pitch black. So for the same equivalent exposure, the light would come purely from those gas lamps. I assure you that they look exactly the same during the whole year here. LOL!



Have you seen my comparison shots? It´s not a matter of overexposing the scene. Is some kind of correction.

I will not explain it over again.



I would say that from the N8...



I will post some comparison shots soon, too. From scenes with the same humidity and temperature. LOL!



LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you ever tried to process a reflex camera RAW pic? I suggest you to use Topaz plugin for Photoshop. Go there. Kill all the chroma noise and see what you get. Lack of contrast, lack of color saturation, big loss of tonal range.

You´re just spreading what you have read somewhere.



What?! LOL...

Naturally, over-saturation come from UNDER-exposure. What the N8 does is to apply a saturation gain filter for higher-ISO shots in order to compensate for the aggressive chroma noise reduction.



Are you sure we´re talking about the same thing? Leave nothing for any program? I thought it was the contrary. No detail? I guess you haven´t paid much attention to my pics. Satio´s shots got it all. Chroma and Luminescent Noise. It´s all there. I can reduce them perfectly on Photoshop without a great loss of detail.

The N8 is the one that doesn´t leave nothing to be done.

Besides, it´s very easy to prove I am right regarding Satio´s resolved resolution. If you refer to loss of resolution due to noise algorithm, then it suffices to look at base ISO pics, like ISO 80 for the Satio and ISO 100 for the N8.

You will see a clear resolved resolution advantage for the N8 at the center of the frame, and at such ISO speeds this difference is clearly not due to noise reduction. It´s the lens.

That´s the difference that exists between good and bad lenses. And that´s normal. It happens with the Canon 550D, for instance. The kit lens do not resolve the sensor´s 18Mpixels.



And you say that I get things the other way round... LOL.



Yeah, if only that was true.



Yes, I meant LESS.

Satio undoubtedly produces more noise than the N8. I´ve never said the contrary. That was my whole point here. I guess you are the only one that doesn´t get it.



It´s always better to maintain some level of chromatic noise than taking it off completely.

You shall reduce some chroma noise. I´ve never asked for the whole bunch. I only say that I prefer to reduce it manually later and not lose color accuracy than having none and those artificial looking pictures like the N8 outputs.

Besides that, my claims are not only regarding the noise reduction algorithm. The N8 has a highly artificial post-processing algorith as well.



If you take a shot from some coloured object you´ll see that it adds saturation artificially. That was what I´ve written.



Sorry, man. You´re wrong here.

Naturally, RAW pictures (see I am talking about un-processed images) at higher ISO speeds lack both Dynamic Range, Resolution and Colour Saturation when compared to lower ISO speeds. The thing that prevents those levels from becoming oven worse is the actual noise. There is no secret. The more you kill noise, be it chroma or luminescent noise, the more of those 3 elements you will lose.

If a High ISO JPEG picture has more saturation and more vivid colors compared to a Low ISO JPEG pic, than it´s clearly due to the post-processing algorithm. And the added saturation will never be as natural as that from the un-processed image.

It´s simple like that.



Well, if you say so...

I can´t say about the colors, as I wasn´t there. Anyway, I have granite here too. Its color depens on the ambient light, too. So I cannot say nothing about it.

But detail wise I see slightly more in the Satio shot.

Please explain yourself better.



I don´t need to check yours. I have mine. And I think they are way to cold. And I am not the only person to think that.



Really?! I thought it was exactly what I was trying to point out.



The scene was like that. Have you read my comments regarding the ambient light? In terms of realism, the Satio depicted better the scene.

Man, you have your granite. I have my room.

Here I post the before-and-after comparison images from a pretty mild noise reduction with the Topaz Denoise v5 for that ISO 640 Satio pic:

Before:



After:



There we see a great difference in noise levels over the forniture, and a soft grain over the wall. I prefer this approach.

Now, using the deband tool of the same Topaz Denois v5 for that N8 shot:

Before:



After:



It got a little better, but we still se traces of band noise there.



Good for you then!



It´s not only about noise. The N8´s approach also has to do with its artificial post-processing algorithm.

It´s not natural. Look at the following shot. I have the EV lowered to the more reasonable value. Look how bad it looks:



And that is ISO 434.

The N8 post-processing algorith is just alfuw for indoors. That´s my opinion. You may have yours. And it may be different from mine.

What I don´t like is:

Huge win for Balboa!! Less muscle and badder testicles!

You felt comfy at commenting my shots, but you do not feel this way when I comment about your granite.

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Posted: 2010-12-14 13:55:19
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You didn't get my point.
You don't have to compare them at equivalent exposures! Exposure equations bring nothing to any comparison.

Because as I said, same as with aperture/SS combinations, shooting at 1 sec-1000 ISO exposure doesn't give the same result as 10 sec-100 ISO!

Too completely different results. Uncomparable.

However, as we know, with the N8-Satio case, comparing them at nighshots with same numbers isn't feasible. So we compare the approaches rather than the quality.

You are comparing those two shots qualitatively, in the sense of comparing color rendering, saturation, and other stuff that can't be directly compared at different ISO and shutter speeds!

To end this debate about nightshot photography:

At outdoors nightshots, the N8 tends to overexpose. That's it. No saturation nor any other flaw.
The results could be more appealing to the unexperienced eye. However, for someone keen into photography, those pics turn out artificial or unrealistic as they represent a tuned and enhanced version of the relative scene.
In order to get teh N8 to colect the right exposure, lowering the EV meter a bit, would do it.

As to the aggressive brightening post-processing algorithm, it only gets implemented in extreme low ligh conditions not normal nightshots. A must I have to add!

As in indoors low light photography without flash, the N8 works by that aggressive post-processing algorithm to lighten up the scene and bring it to a condition as if it were well lit by some light source.

Again, unrealistic but could give more appealing results.. Results the profis usually try to get after manual post-processing..
However, it would have been much nicer has the N8 took the same approach for daylight scenes and left the scenes as natural as it could.
Then, it's up for the user to tune the way he likes.
Anyway, lowering the EV would also do the trick, but here one has to hit the extremes by lowering it by more than one stop.


Now, as to the Satio.
Outdoors nightshots get underexposed half of the times. Not to mention the blurry risk.
Correcting the exposure would result in f*cked up color rendering, excessive noise, and huge loss of detail all at the same time. Given the camera's hardware capablities, this is all normal, and SE rather did a great job pulling the max out of the Satio in this case.

Other than that, at extreme low light situations, the Satio can't handle those scenes.
And not to mention, that unless one has superb steady hands, or hold the Satio fixed at some stand, the photos will suffer blurriness..

Indoors flash or no flash, N8 delivers realistic photos. Where the Satio artificially colors the scenes.

This all change at extreme low-light shots, whereas Satio goes for a more realistic approach than the N8. But one really needs to hold the Satio fixed for those shots. Other than that, there is always an underexposure..
You could tell me that you prefer Satio's underexposure over the N8's overexposure. Well, it a matter of taste then!

But I really see those Satio's shots pointless with all that lack of exposure at extreme conditions.

You know, we're talking about cameraphones at end. With much limitations.
These devices aren't meant to be used at those extreme situations.
But if need to, I prefer the N8's extreme approach as one still ends up with some useful shots not black/white ones.
It's very obvious that this approach is all intended by Nokia.
You can't expect from an average user to accept those Satio pics. Any causal user will go with the N8 shots.

Still, you could always end up with similar or better shots to those of Satio if you play with the settings a bit.



First of all, hold yourself a little bit here.. I was all respectful so far..

And I definitely didn't mean that those two pictures were shot at considerably different humidity and temperatures!

I wanted to give you examples as why photos shot at completely different timings can't be held reliable.

You can't just go out, shoot a scene. Then a month or two later, or even more, go out with another camera, shoot the same scene at different angle and at slightly different position, and use those photos for comparison.

I really don't get it.
Couldn't you just took the Satio out with you at that night and shot at same conditions?
In case you've sold the Satio by then, then I'm sorry, but you can't use those photos as a reliable reference.




The issue here you're refering to killing the chroma noise as really killing it! Removing it all!
It's not the case. You can't expect from any camera manufacturer to implement such an algorithm.

The N8 uses an aggressive chromatic noise reduction. But that's what all manufacturers do.
Maybe you're a Canon user, as they're known to implement the softest chromatic noise reduction in their DSLRs..

However, you're pushing the issue here out of proportions. We're comparing cameraphones for heaven's sake.
You're going too far by stating things like chromatic noise reduction compenation...

Other than that, that shot you took with the N8 with banding noise is all about chroma noise.
Those bands are chromatic disorder not luminance caused..

Anyway, one doesn't have to go much into details here. The N8 at those extremes conditions tend to implement some aggressive post-processing to achieve some useful results. I don't see any problem with that even regarding the price of that approach.. If you think it overdid it, you could play with the setting a bit.



You can't reduce any noise perfectly on even the best DSLR and yet you claim you can do that with the Satio?!

Dude, noise is a matter of taste to begin with.
Secondly, I agree the N8's banding noise is really disturbing, but could be tolerated for the sake of the end result.

At the end, as I hinted, even the best high-end compact cameras can't handle extreme low-light shots well, or even nightshots. You are taking the N8 and the Satio to levels they aren't supposed to handle as casual cameras!

Just go and take a look at Davidsic nightshots in the photos thread, and I dare you to produce similar high-quality photos with the Satio!!

Also, maybe as a good reference if you're willing to go further in this extreme low-light night photography, why don't you use your Canon as a reference?



I'm not arguing about this point.
The N8 has a higher-quality sensor, larger as well, and higher quality optics. That's why quality-wise there is no room for any comparison.
Just the appoaches (including post-processing) could be compared.



You seem you got me wrong on this point again.
The Satio implements an aggressive noise reduction algorithm. Period.
This could be user-friendly, as casual users don't even bother with post-processing and trying to cut down the noise effects..
But as to the N8, with higher noise levels, even if kept like that, it's very accepable. No need for any further reduction that is.

Now, you went too far by analyzing chromatic and luminance noises on camerphones, and claimed that the N8 uses an aggressive chromatic noise reduction, and somehow related the dynamic range, Satio's lower quality optics into the equation.

Read further with the next comment:



That is at extremem light conditions only. At any normal conditions, including the normal nightshots, the N8 leave more noise and better detail than the Satio.
At extreme conditions, the N8 still produces better detail but less noise.

It's the Satio's noise algorithm that is not consistent here.



The N8's photo turned out more blurry. I agree. You could define that as less detail.
But by leaving the sharpness out, as both photos turned out blurry since I didn't hold them firm enough, the excessive noise on the Satio killed much detail of the granite different colored stripes..

Anyway, regarding sharpness, the only domain the Satio outdoes the N8 is the close-up.
I have to admit it. Clear advantage for the Satio in this department.
Normal close-up under normal lighting.. Extreme low lighting it turns in N8 advantage.. But who really shoots close-ups in extreme low conditions anyway... By extreme low light condition, I mean without using the flash as well.

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Posted: 2010-12-15 00:04:21
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I am tired of this... Many contradictory statements from you. I´ll drop them and I´ll try to be objective and conclusive about my thoughts. If you do not agree, I do not really care about it.

First of all, from those first two pics of mine that you posted here, I already explained myself several times. No need to do that again. For information about this, refer to my last post.

My thoughts about the N8:

NIGHT SHOTS WITHOUT FLASH:

=> EV set to "0 or +x": Agressive post-processing with Digital Exposure Compensation and Chromatic Noise Reduction reduces both tonal range and contrast levels. That leads to the need to apply artifitial colour saturation. Results look pale, with monotonic tonal range. The great resolution provided by its lens helps to compensate for the detail loss due to this post-processing algorith.

Common issues:

- Live preview far from accurate;
- MANUAL ISO is pointless for this kind of shot - EV value change doesn´t affect the SS;
- Genarally pale and over-exposed shots;
- Strange noise reduction artifacts whithin dark areas of the picture, starting to appear right down at ISO 300;
- White Balance not accurate;
- Orange street gas lamps look like yellow;
- Vivid colors get artifitial saturation that renders colors monotonic.

=> EV set to "-x": The ISO gets lowered, and so does the Shutter Speed. More accurate results only for the lower EV positions. Limited usage.

Common issues:

- MANUAL ISO is pointless for this kind of shot - EV value change doesn´t affect the SS;
- Sudden change of behaviour of the post-processing algorithm at lower EV postions - from agressive to soft;
- Live View not accurate for near EV 0 positions;
- Under-exposed pics;

NIGHT SHOTS WITH FLASH:

=> Cold colors. The camera selects higher ISO speeds (around 800) without the need to.

Common issues:

- Sudden loss of quality for objects about 1.5-2 meters away from the camera.
- Pale skin tones;
- Over-exposed pics.

My thoughts about the Satio:

NIGHT SHOTS WITHOUT FLASH:

=> Accurate Metering and White Balance. Perfect Live Preview and Display Color Setup. What you see is what you get. Generally there´s no need to change EV. Mature post-processing. Mild noise reduction algorith (The Satio DOES NOT apply an agressive noise reduction - in fact, that´s quite the opposite). Perfect for post-processing. Availability of slower SS of up to 1s. Changing the EV position doesn´t affect how agressive the post-processing becomes.

Common issues:

- Eventual misfocused pics, as it doesn´t fire the LED for focusing objects without the flash;

NIGHT SHOTS WITH FLASH:

=> More appealing colors. Warm and natural skin tones.

Common issues:

- Ocasional white balance issues when shooting under Incandescent Light.

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Posted: 2010-12-15 02:10:53
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