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@max_wedge



You make it sound like to win the PDA phone market hinge on having a TS.
This is superfluous. Maybe having just a TS is a liability. Look at how many new WM is being retrofitted with a slide-out keypad (Dopod 838pro, Stealth and others). On the other you dont see very successful non-TS PDA phones like RIM, Palm or Nokia communicator being retrofitted with a TS. Can you tell me why??



Samsung and LG is already doing it. The harm is already done (i.e. power to Nokia).

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Posted: 2007-03-06 13:51:32
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The retrofit is an addition is it not? ie: it still has a TS?

A TS takes up more room than a slide out keyboard so retrofitting a TS is a major redesign. Nokia can't get TS support running properly on thier platforms so no, Communicator doesn't have TS.

And no, not that it hinges on it at all, but is is a significant factor. A TS is a required item on a PDA for many people. Not all, granted, but a much larger slice of the market than you assume.

You call yourself a power user, well so do I. I can tell you I could not tolerate a handheld-computer that doesn't have some kind of freehand input method such as mouse, trackball, scratch pad or TS. A TS is the only viable option for a handheld computer imho.

Now, for s60 users, a smartphone is just a phone with multitasking application platform included. A TS WM device on the other hand is descended from palm top devices designed from the outset to be handheld computers. You simply cannot claim the same flexibility or efficiency of interface with a hard screen phone. I'm sorry but you might as well say you can use windows without a mouse. Sure you can do many things in Windows without a mouse, but I dare you to tell me you'd be happy using a computer without one? I feel the same way about handheld computers. The only reason I'm interested in "smartphones" at all is because I want to ultimately have a phone that can double as a hand-held computer as well, to avoid having two devices to lug around. And I'm afraid Nokia's idea of a "smartphone" just isn't what I would call a handheld computer. I've tried a Motorola hardscreen WM smartphone, and it was useless to me without a TS.

Many people like me have been waiting for the day when TS PDA's became integrated into mobile phones. Such people will not be satisfied with a non-TS device. I strongly believe that TS based devices are still highly popular and a force to be reckoned with in the market.


Yes, Samsung and LG are Nokia's ho's. SE is aiming to have it's own influence in the market, rather than follow Nokia's lead.

I could also mention Motorola's use of UIQ..
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Posted: 2007-03-06 15:28:41
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@max_wedge



Why the need then to ADD a keypad which increase the weight and size of phone?!!!. You see your fallacy here? You have argued all along that TS is all you need - you can do everything with it even entering text at super speed. (see your own quote below )



Yet you got me wrong. I am not claiming that at all. TS do give more flexibility/efficiency under SOME (but not ALL) circumstances. Many are willing to forego the TS in order not be burdened by baggage that comes with TS incl. both hands use, poking at the TS with finger with no feel at all and further aggravated by your palm/fingers blocking the view, smudging the screen with fingerprints, washed out display when view in bright light

In a standalone PDA era it made sense to have a TS because the purpose of the PDA then is to mimic the desktop computer usage profile. But this "desktop replacement" concept (incl. edit doc/write report etc) has long faded away. Nowadays most enterprise smartphone used is for email, viewing docs, PIM, media and lastly the most important PHONE functions which are much better performed with a keypad than a TS.





[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-03-07 06:05 ]
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Posted: 2007-03-07 06:54:20
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But then, you don't need a smartphone for those things (with or without a TS), do you (this comment was just to fill out some empty space in this thread).
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Posted: 2007-03-07 17:05:29
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Well said Arne Anka! This is my whole point about smartphones. Without a TS, it's much like any other non-smartphone. Sure multitasking is good, and for java apps, SE non-smartphones now have that too!
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Posted: 2007-03-14 01:53:58
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well if the new K850 is based on UIQ then i gues SE will be using more of UIQ instead of killing it.
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Posted: 2007-03-14 02:58:44
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All your previous points seemed sensible/plausible UNTIL THIS.
What has happened!??



Smartphone = multitasking only?? If that's all a smartphone is to you, well then I have nothing more to say on this.


[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-03-14 02:32 ]
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Posted: 2007-03-14 03:32:06
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No mib, it is you trying too hard to read into what I say, or maybe failing to understand my points.

Without a TS, then a smartphone has an impaired interface. You may think that a stylus or mouse based interface is superfluous but I don't agree. Without a TS, a smartphone is much like a K800 with JAVA multi-tasking - ie: there is a multi-task application platform, good multimedia support (okay video needs upgrading, agreed compared to N series), and also standard pda functions (calander etc).

But a TS adds speed and flexibility to the interface. You cannot argue that a non-TS device has as flexible an interface, no matter how quick you are with T9. There is so much more to TS than being able to write quickly, which you can do easily with a little practice anyway (just like T9).

BTW, I never said a smartphone is about multi-tasking only, all I said is that this is the only major advantage it has over a non-smartphone. Okay okay, I know what you are going to say. Smartphone has application support. We have covered this so many times mib. K800 has a brilliant JAVA platform, with virtually the same level of hardware access as s60 from a practical point of view. No it is not as good as s60, but it is maturing very quickly and every year gains ground on s60 in terms of functionality and app availablity. In the end functionality is all that counts, you can argue other technical matters (such as s60 has OS level app support) as much as you like.

Hell even my K750 has a decent java platform (albeit no multitasking). But with my K750 here are just some of the things I do with 3rd party apps:
1. access and retrieve files on other phones via bluetooth
2. remote control other SE phones via bluetooth (I'm not talking about PC remote - that's built in to the phone already)
3. Unit converter
4. cookbook
5. Full dictionary (10MB, doesn't need internet)
6. 128bit DES encryption of files
7. first aid manual
8. messenger client (plus varioius other IM)
9. webcam viewer
10. file manager (not built in - more powerful java versions than what SE give you, for example ability to rename extensions of files)
11. Full browser (opera mini being the best)
12. Today screen (only works as today screen on K800 or later - but still can use it to access pda functions even on K750)
13. PaintCAD (image editing)
14. ebook readers
15. rss readers
16. text editors
17. budgeting and expense tracking
18. rtf upload to email address (I'm waiting for this to come out with jsr75 support)
19. car log software

this is just a small list of the functionality I use regularly. There are thousands of other apps available. Let me also note, that while I have these great apps, if I had a stylus, they would be more efficient to use. So my K750 primarily suffers from the same problem all hard screen smartphones face: the lack of stylus input. After using my XDA mini, I find it cumbersome to navigate a hardscreen phone, whether it's a smartphone or not.



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Posted: 2007-03-17 01:14:32
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Hi Max,

I know you are a big believer in the fact that a Smart Phone has to have a Touchscreen to be able to work effectively but sorry that is just wrong on so many levels it's untrue.

Now as for your comparing K800 to any Smart Phone because it cam run Java apps that is also in MO just not credible either, as on one hand you say it has to have a Touchscreen to be a Smart Phone and then not only does it not have a touchscreen but it can not handle office docs, Pdfs etc etc.


As for your comment of
" K800 has a brilliant JAVA platform, with virtually the same level of hardware access as s60 from a practical point of view."

You really can't be serious on this please i mean really how can you compare a Dumb Camera phone to a whole series of proper Smart Phones/ Multimedia computers. The range of installed and 3rd Party apps for S60 is massive and i certainly wouldn't want to try and use a K800 as my Smart Phone no way.


Marc

_________________
Nokia Black N93,2gb SanDisk TomTom6,Fring for Skype, AD-46 with Sony MDR-EX71SL. Nokia 8800 Special Edition & BH-500 Stereo bluetooth Headset & Sony MDR-EX71SL

[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-03-17 00:39 ]
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Posted: 2007-03-17 01:37:57
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for me itis true, because it comes down to personal preference. You hardscreen smartphone supporters are the ones trying to claim that they are just as good as a TS smartphone ie: that anyone who uses smartphones would be just as happy with a non-ts version as a TS version. THAT is wrong on so many levels. Many people who use smartphones require a TS, I am not alone or even in a minority in this.



I'm only comparing it to a smartphone in the context of a smartphone without a TS. In my view, a smartphone is only truly in a league of it's own if it has a TS. This is why I still have my XDA mini and not a K800 for example, or to compare against an actual smartphone, N73 for example.

JAVA support for pdfs and worddocs will come in due course.

But a N73 or similar is not much more useful than a K800 in any significant way bar the availability of software. On that score there is far more software available for pocketpc platforms than s60/uiq3/java combined. So on the basis of your argument you should be supporting a pocketpc phone as your prefered smartphone platform

s60 is more mature than java (or even UIQ3) so yes of course there is more software available. But as to using a K800 as a smartphone - well due to my preference for SE UI, I simply am not interested in N series, despite technical advantages they have. And K800 java support is much more advanced than you seem to be aware, which means that in a years time there will be java apps that we can only dream about now.

Anyway it's theoretical, because I wouldn't use a K800 as a smartphone. AS I said, I will only use a TS based smartphone. So N series are useless to me (because of horrible UI, and also because of lack of TS). Sorry if that offends you, but due to my requirements for a smartphone, I simply don't see N series as viable smartphones (or any hardscreen smartphone, including pocketpc hardscreen variants).

I already have most of the application support I want on my K750, let alone the possibilites of K800 (for example today screen). So what's the big deal about s60 then? I'll stick to using my XDA as my preferred smartphone (for me, a truly useful mini-computer), and my K750 as my primary mobile phone (with multimedia, internet, most of the apps I need, camera and pda sync - nothing to cry about). Upgrade to K800 when I can afford it.

In the final analysis I can accept that your use a non-TS smartphone is adequate, but not all of us are so undemanding. There is still no phone company that perfectly combines the following: TS, full complement of hardwired buttons and joystick/dpad, decent multimedia AND multitask OS with good application support.

_________________
File System Tweaks for the K750 K750 Tricks

[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-03-17 01:44 ]
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Posted: 2007-03-17 02:43:25
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