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< Esato Forum Index > Sony Ericsson / Sony > General > The Future of SE's Java Platform Bookmark topic

it's not dead but it's going down. non-smartphones will use it for a long time
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Posted: 2010-02-26 11:20:13
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is not going down since its everywhere in this world
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Posted: 2010-02-26 15:50:37
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1. we are talking about mobile J2ME, not Java on desktop PC, servers etc.
2. smartphone OSes are stronger and cheaper than ever before
3. J2ME is not atractive for developers and mobile manufacturers any more
4. very poor abilities of J2ME platforms (runtime environment inside propertary OS) compared to native code applications
5. "write once, run everywhere" - nice idea killed by many awful J2ME implementations
6. porting and testing of many versions of one game for many devices - time-consuming, very laborious and costly
7. dispersed distribution system for J2ME applications, high cost of distribution, lack of protection against piracy and so on
8. many J2ME programmers lost their job or they had to adapt to new realities (iPhone dev)
9. most developers throws most of human resources from J2ME to iPhone dev
10. some developers abandoned Nintendo Wii for iPhone dev because of better ratio of development costs and profits

you're right J2ME is not going gown, it is dying. me = former J2ME programmer, still active in game dev industry

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Posted: 2010-02-26 19:05:07
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@Max,

Glad you're still around, hope all is well! Also I'm finally going to give it a full try to learn this Java ... the code of the internet which has flourished the fatest of any code.



You're forgetting there are at least 3 smartphone platforms based on java:
BlackBerry
JavaFX
* I forget the other one.
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Posted: 2010-02-27 02:41:45
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1. > BlackBerry is a licensed Java J2ME & CLDC Java OS ... augmented but still Java to the core.
2. & 3. > you are VERY wrong here. See above ^ and also see how quick this can be developed and look harder at MIDP3 and you'll see its just as everybit as powerful as any other C+/C#/Objective-C based OS ... and MUCH more security than any alternative!!
4. I can run Native J2ME applications - most on my BlackBerry (less so on OS5 due to the increases in augmentation).
5. The write once run anywhere is still possible and for the most part. Any issues with simply running & portability is because of the ability of manufacturers allowed to license and augment the core VM. This is not SUN's fault if write once run aware doesn't work. However the code is so much easier to run on other platforms than what I've read thus far.
6. I cannot agree even more! This is why using an established, secure and proven platform like Java J2ME/Java SE/Java EE (for Enterprise servers) makes perfect sense. You're already seeing the faults of WM, S60, and Android apps not able to run from one device to the other EVEN with the same layout. We can go on forever about how many apps are available on said plaform/device vs another ... but in reality developers go where the marketing hype is because that's where the money will flow!!
7. hehe ... show me 1 java app deployed on AppWorld that has been pirated?!
You wouldn't believe how easy it is for me to pirate Apple iPhone apps after 1 purchase ... AND I get to do so using iTunes. Most of the J2ME apps where pirated on iPMart because the vendors had poor site security and where hacked way too easily. And don't get me started how easily the community for S60 2ND Edition FP2/3 outdid all the N-Gage QD games ... every single one! Going to 3rd Edition was supposed to alleviate the issue ... that didn't work too well or for too long. WM same thing. The REAL issue with piracy on any platform is lack of tight user controls. Having 1 distribution through a cloud service AS the platform began is what Apple contributed to the industry and THAT is how iPhone really changed the game - touch on capacitive would've evolved soon after anyway.
9. See my point 6 above.
Also their resources cannot be easily thrown ... you MUST have an intel based Mac in order to develop for iPhone OS because the iPhone/iPod and now iPad OS development environment XCode ONLY works on Mac OS X. Buying an iMac/MacBook/Mac Pro is VERY expensive alternative before running on an existing windows platform.
10. Yes when development Wii costs just as must as a MacMini with ION chipset.

And what are you developing for now?! iPhone ... unless you already have a Mac then its not a cheap migration.


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Posted: 2010-02-27 03:03:09
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BlackBerry is the last strong bastion of J2ME support but they have no other choice, they created OS with J2ME support and they cannot imagine move to other OS. it's just better for them to create own implementation to avoid problems

JavaFX? it's not OS, it's nothing else than upgraded Java platform. Sun just want to bite Adobe AIR and M$ Silverlight on desktops and throw something better than Java to mobiles

maybe you was thinking about SavaJe? it's dead now, Sun bought them and used to create JavaFX


again, the OS provides support for J2ME platform. this isn't Java to the core, this is Java to the virtual machine inside OS and virtual machine to the core. it's nothing else than SE idea with Java Plaform on top of OS, idea in larger scale


today is too late for MIDP3. now it's only an epic fail which will be supported by BlackBerry because they have to. strong point of J2ME are quite low hardware requirements and this is where you should look for a chance for MIDP. theory about MIDP3 as powerful as native apps in C++/Obj-C makes me facepalm


application -> virtual machine -> run. to be native you have to remove virtual machine from the runtime chain first. are J2ME apps native in SE? no, native are ELF apps only, written in asm/C/C++ and compiled to machine code. even Android with Dalvik is not native, however Android is not MIDP device which makes a huge difference


I never said it is SUN's fault, it's exactly like you wrote - manufacturers. J2ME fragmentation problem is pain in the ass, it's hell! ask any J2ME programmer about it and it will make facepalm and then facepalm once again. your knowledge about J2ME can be perfect but you won't get J2ME senior programmer job without good knowledge about fragementation issues in many devices. isn't this ridiculous that better knowledge about issues is more important than knowledge of language and API?


fragmentation in smartphones are tiny when compared to J2ME! the more devices will be on the market, the more fragmentation problems will appear, that's for sure. developers are always where moneys and good idea meets. that's why MIDP sucks without big central stores, only BlackBerry with AppWorld can do something but they have no other choice than supporting J2ME


hold on! J2ME world is not BlackBerry only, I know that you would like to focus on this example only but you can't. we have to talk about all devices with J2ME support, more than 2000 models WITHOUT central store and without anti-piracy system. iPMart? J2ME piracy (copy from the phone and post on internet) is 1000000 times larger in global scale. you can find J2ME games/apps everywhere


simple and perfect isn't it? but that's not all...

J2ME = games
Symbian = a lot better games
iPhone = outstanding games

entertainment is this where huge moneys are, was that so hard to understand for other manufacturers? iPhone was a breakthrough in mobile gaming and J2ME still has nothing else to offer. J2ME vs. iPhone/Android is like Hello Kity vs. Leopard


sorry but you have poor knowledge about game dev. Apple hardware in fact is more expensive than normal PC but you need it only for programmers and game testers. testers only needs iPhone or iPod Touch and they will be used also by programmers. as you can see on AppStore expensive hardware is not a big problem for developers and freelancers. costs of development are low/average (project type dependent) on both, what's diferent?

J2ME:
- time-consuming testing procedures. 2-4 game testers (full-time workers) must verify game on dozens of devices.
you have to pay them good moneys to keep high motivation to work because game testing is very hard work. do I have to mention that you must have those "dozens of devices"? if no then you can move testing procedures to other company (outsourcing) and then pay bill
- many distributors - with each you have to share profits
- not possible to reach for max amount of customers

iPhone:
- testing procedures are not infernal. you don't need army of testers and dozens od devices
- distribution in one place - 30% for Apple, 70% for you
- all customers in one place

about Wii and not only:
- hardware: pay once
- development costs are always high and you have to pay for each new project which your team will start


I'm not the best example of how expensive migration is because I have free MacBook from my employer. some months ago he fired me because J2ME market stopped and many J2ME programmers like me lost their jobs or they had to learn iPhone programming very fast. my employer wasn't prepared for iPhone, today he knows that was a big mistake

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Posted: 2010-03-01 08:50:58
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the advantages of development for iphone are the same thing that will keep it limited in marketshare - ie you have to have an iphone. Despite Steve Jobs fantasy that iphone is the best and only option that any sensible person would consider for a phone it's simply not the case. The majority of people (evidenced by the fact that iphone doesn't have more than 50% of marketshare) don't want an iphone.

iphone ingress into marketshare will stabilise now that other oem's are competing on touch UI's (and have always competed and bested iphone hardware spec). Therefore the majority of handset's all support j2me, which once the iphone market growth locks in at around 20% or so and never much better than that, leaves J2ME as the single largest application platform out there.

As both raiderski and prom1 have mentioned manufacturers are the key. If they can bring themselves to see the benefit of a cross platform app environment, rather than trying to lock user's into their handsets with proprietary applications there is some hope for J2ME.

Example: there are many brands of PC's. Does HP (for example) develop hardware that will only support software bought from an online "HP app store", while Dell develop hardware that can only run apps purchased from "Dell Online"? Of course not and it would be suicide if they did. They realise that people want to buy a PC for the software it can run as much as for the hardware it can run. Imagine have 20 different versions of Photoshop depending on what OEM you bought your PC from? Or if freeware x runs on your HP but not your Dell? I have 100 odd packages that I run on the PC regularly and I tell you I would be pissed if I had to search for 100 new apps that do the same thing everytime I buy a new brand of PC.

If Apple want to maintain their exclusivity in the market they will also condemn thenselves to always be a minority player, just as they do with their computers. The rest of the industry just get's on with designing hardware and software that works with any PC out there regardless of the manufacturer.

This is what phone OEM's have to realise. Develop native apps by all means, but ensure also that you have a working J2ME platform and work with industry bodies to ensure standards that allow cross-portability of J2ME apps. J2ME has a place, it just needs to be properly supported. 70% of the apps in the Appple app store are a simple apps that could be coded for the J2ME platform just as successfully. Imagine how successful a J2ME app store that would be if it catered to the 80% of handsets that are not iphones? It wouldn't take long before one of the primary selling points of the iphone, it's strong app support, would be eclipsed. Also the increased flow of money to J2ME development would supercharge the quality of apps available.

Raiderski, I agree with you that J2ME seems to be dying, but it started of without even file system access, now there are apis for almost everything the hardware is capable of. It only needs OEM's (and development houses) to realise the potential for it to blossom.

btw, non-smartphones thrive on j2me - and non-smartphones still have a large marketshare, used as first phones for teens, cheap handset's for anyone who doesn't want to spend a bundle or lock in to a contract and many other purposes. My niece for example spends a reasonable proportion of her prepaid credit on downloading games.

There's hope for J2ME yet.

@Prom1,

Yep, still around All is well, business has been busy and I've been drawn away from my mobile phone interests lately but I'll never completely disappear! As always, it's good to read your comments and catch up.

As you will no doubt notice, I've stepped up to the Satio. I had a quick foray with the Samsung i8910, but while it has some better features, it just doesn't have the style of satio, and more importantly, the camera is slow and clunky and it's a relief to have the Satio tbh.
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Posted: 2010-06-30 07:49:08
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Interesting to note, the Android application platform also runs a version of Java - a rewrite of J2ME basically but much more powerful with more advanced api's.

There are even code converters for J2ME to Android!

Android MAY stimulate improvements to J2ME - if developers spend time coding for Android but want to port there apps to non-android platforms as well there could be industry pressure to keep the development of J2ME at pace with Android, since the code is so similiar.
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Posted: 2010-07-16 08:47:02
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Android isn't powered by Java but it still use "idea of Java". Java appears only as a programming language for Android applications but during code compilation to bytecode everything becomes different. Android doesn't have Java Virtual Machine (!), Dalvik is not compatible with any Java technology (SE/ME/EE), it creates own technology with own APIs which has nothing to do with Java. It's not Java anymore altough Dalvik idea was taken from JVM - source code to bytecode and now thru Just In Time to native code in Froyo. +1 for Google
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Posted: 2010-07-16 10:26:01
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Thanks for the clarification, though the JAVA code that the developer writes in is converted on the fly by the Dalvik VM, atleast that's my understanding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)

But yes, the Java that the developer uses is not directly compatible with J2ME.


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Posted: 2010-07-17 02:31:55
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