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On 2006-09-13 08:42:53, mib1800 wrote:
If this is your yardstick, then handsets from other manufacturers are of fairly high quality also. I thought you are saying that SE limit their handsets so that it concentrate on making better quality handsets than the rest of the world. Apparently not.
What I said was that in the past when SE had fewer resources and were just breaking into the mobile market, they were in a better position to deliver on quality than quantity.
Now that SE have expanded a bit and have widened their portfolio we have seen the quantity factor come into play a bit more. The result has been to release some handsets, which are similar to one another, but which do offer a choice to consumers, and also, unfortunately, some handsets, which offer little or no choice to the consumers, being almost carbon copies of other handsets.
This isn't peculiar to SE of course, Nokia have already been there. However, it is promising that SE's handsets, including carbon copies such as the W700, do hold to a certain standard.
Also, I never said that other manufacturers didn't produce high quality handsets. I like the look of some of Sharp's handsets, for example. Other manufacturers are quite capable of producing good quality handsets, it just so happens that smaller manufacturers can be quite adept at producing them.
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If you cannot make your flagship model workable despite very long development period and much delay then I would say this qualifies as a reason.
A quote from April of this year:
"Nokia made an important announcement today about the delay of their latest smartphones, the E60, E61, E70, N71, N80 and N91. Apparently, they are claiming that software problems had delayed the release of the six models."
Source:
mobileguerilla
I know Nokia does things on a bigger scale than SE and it would seem bugs and delays are no different, resulting in not one, but six delayed handsets.
However, I don't for a second think that Nokia is incapable of releasing a good smartphone nor do I think they are incompetent. They had problems, just like other manufacturers do.
Incidentally, a report from Mobile Today gives the P990 very high praise, so much so that one commentator suggested that it will present a real threat to the N series.
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My opinion is that SE has just "one" platform model i.e. K750i. The rest are just the clone of this with changes to camera module only.
The K series (and before it the T series) are amongst the most popular of SE's products, hence it is hardly surprising that SE should release handsets that are based upon that platform. Don't get me wrong, diversity is important, but any manufacturer also needs to go with what is popula and most likely to turn them a profit.
One can look at the RAZR and see how Motorola has essentially released a range of handsets based on that platform. Samsung did well with the D500 and now we see them releasng handsets based upon that platform. These sort of handsets are needed by manufacturers because they know that they can make money.
If you look at SE's current portfolio you can see that they have handsets, which are not simply clones of the K750. The P series springs to mind for one; the M600 is another. The W950 is also markedly different. The W900 uses an entirely different form factor from the K750, with a totally seperate focus. The J100 is an extremely simple handset, apart from sharing the same form factor, it isn't very similar to the K750 at all.
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Same OS ...
... because it would be better to have multiple OS so as to confuse customers? I don't know about you, but I rathe rlike the fact that SE's non-smartphones share a common OS (with some modifications depending upon handset), it makes switching between handsets much easier.
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... and same crap video recording.
This has to be one of the silliest point people are raising today. What exactly are you expecting? Perhaps you think a film crew should be included along with a handset these days? Video recording is relatively poor across the board, few, if any handsets currently available, in Europe at any rate, are capable of much more than recording relatively short clips of drunken people slurring incoherently at their mobiles after a night out to send to drunken friends. I doubt many people are going out with the view to buying a mobile that is going to be filming a Palme d'Or candidate.
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Others has been shrinking the handset size in subsequent generation (D600->D900, N70->N73). SE is increasing size (K750->K800).
And? The size of the K800 (not that it is terribly big) doesn't seem to be hurting its sales.
As long as a handset is within acceptable dimensions I doubt most consumers are going to be getting out the tape measure. I imagine a popular size check might be whether it fits in their trouser pocket or not.
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What does this prove? If SE as rosy a company as you have painted, then why does SE market share worldwide do not increase at a rocket rate. In fact, the relative increase is no better that what was achieved by Nokia. If SE cannot accelerate faster than the incumbent what does that show?
A number of points here, so let's start with the first.
What it 'proves' is that a plethora of high-end smartphones are not necessarily going to beat a good non-smartphone. Your point about technological leadership is flawed because it equates technological sophistication and leadership with cramming as many features into a handset as possible.
What you don't mention is that arguably any manufacturer could release a handset bursting with features if they really wanted to, but not all manufacturers do. The K800 certainly doesn't have all the features of a handset like the N80, but then it doesn't need them, it isn't aimed at the same market. The K800 is aimed at the ordinary customer, it has features that the ordinary customer will find interesting and want to use. If one makes a closer comparison, say the K800 and the N73, one sees that the N73, despite being a smartphone and hence arguably having a technological edge, is not necessarily doing better than the K800.
In effect technology is one thing, but whether customers want it is another.
The second concerning global market share is fairly straightforward; SE is a small company. Simply put SE don't have the capacity of the bigger players, this limits there overall ability to expand. As I said before, they are slowly expanding; both their profits and their portfolio.
Nokia can afford to flood the market with handsets catering to just about everyone, hence Nokia can expect to sell lots of handsets. What we are starting to see is an expansion of SE's portfolio, they have more handsets than ever now. This is allowing them to do better, but they are still not in a position to compete one for one with Nokia.
SE's approach appears to have been a cautious one, indeed I seem to recall a SE executive commenting upon the company's cautious nature. They are now becoming a bit bolder and I think we shall see that paying off in the years ahead.
The last point about accelerating faster than the incumbent is an interesting one. It assumes that the incumbent is doing poorly and not able to fend off competition. I certainly wouldn't claim either of these things about Nokia. Nokia is number one for various reasons, but certainly one of them is that they don't sit still in an ever changing market.
In a recent interview, Nokia's new UK MD commented that Nokia UK faced stiff competition from its competitors, but that such competition helped to 'raise Nokia's game', to paraphrase his comment.
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btw: hope your statistic is not based on the list provided by the leather case maker.
No it is not. They are provided by Mobile, an industry periodical.
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You are very right. The three are more or less equal as CAMERA. But the rest of the K800 specs are pretty weak compared to the other 2.
Let's deal with the D900 first. The camera is a 3 MP affair, which is less than the K800's 3.2 MP camera. It doesn't have a proper flash. It has 70 Mb of internal memory, the K800 has 64 Mb. I could go on, but suffice to say the rest of the features don't show the D900 being 'stronger' than the K800. The D900's specifications can be found
here.
The N73 now. 42 Mb of internal memory, as above the K800 has 64 Mb. Again no proper flash like the K800, but it does have an ambient light detector though. The N73 does support more music formats than the K800 and it uses S60. Again, apart from the S60 OS, I can't really see anything that would make me think the N73 is 'stronger' than the K800. Even the S60 isn't necessarily a plus point as many customers may not need or care about it, indeed that seems to be borne out by the fact that both the K800 and D900, non-smartphones, are doing well, in some cases better, than the N73.
The N73's specifications can be found
here (click on the 'Technical Specifications' option).
The K800's specifications can be found
here.
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Very true. But we also remember 2-3 quarters ago Samsung seems unstoppable in becoming No. 2.
Which is probably why SE haven't been terribly concerned with market share in the past. Certainly we haven't heard them saying that it is their primary goal to exoand their market share, rather they have always maintained that their focus is on profitability.
I think this is a much more sensible strategy than focusing on rankings. Get the business right first and ensure that profits are steady before concerning one's self with one's position in a chart.
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Not entirely so. First impression is crucial. If a person who do not know anything about phones picks up the spec of K800 and N73, he immediately can tell N73 has the upperhand. If all the other factors being equal, then it is very like this person will go with N73.
You are assuming that person is interested in the features the N73 has that the K800 doesn't, which, after having looked at the specs doesn't seem to be much more than S60. Furthermore, the situation you outlined is not how most people buy a mobile phone. We both know that several factors are involved e.g. advertising hype, word of mouth, a certain feature, design, price, availability, brand reputation, etc.
Many people who go to buy a mobile probably already have an idea of what they want. Those who don't are going to be influenced by several factors, some of which I mentioned above. That one handset has more features isn't enough to sell a handset, if it were then we should see handsets like the N91, N80, TyTn, etc dominating the sales charts. The fact is that we don't, we see non-smartphones dominating the sales charts.
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Releasing more handsets in "different" segments (like fashion or sport) helps to win business. But releasing the same handset (like K750/W800/810/700) in different casing in the same market segment is more likely to confuse and alienate buyers.
The facts would seem to contradict that theory; the K750, the W800 and th W810 have all been highly successful handsets for SE. Indeed, the K750 and W810 are still selling well now. The W700 wasn't a terribly good showing in my opinion, but I think its sales have probably been hampered more by the W810 being available rather than it being a clone of the W800 (although I certainly don't think that helped it).
Handsets aimed at certain market segments, such as the examples you gave, can boost business. However, a manufacturer has to be in a position to offer such handsets first. SE was too small in previous years to really delve into such markets, it had to concentrate on the primary general market. Now that they are expansing their handset range I think we shall sart seeing more handsets aimed at specific markets e.g. the Z610.
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The big question will other buyers or current SE buyers return and upgrade after N-th consecutive generation of similar products K750->K800->K?? W800->W810/700->W??. I think quite a few (even in this forum) lamented why should they want to upgrade from a K750/W800 to a W810 or K800 when the difference in spec and outlook is so little.
The sales figures would appear to confirm that SE is giving people what they want. Handsets such as the K750, W800, W810 and K800 have all proved very popular, consumers clearly like them.
SE have now moved to a much more focused strategy in that the K800 is now an imaging focused handset whereas the W810 and W850 are very much focused on music, without certain imaging features as found in the K800 (and with certain music features not found in the K800). SE look to be creating product lines based on a single running theme e.g. imaging, music, business, etc.
I think this is a good move, it simplifies things and gives someone what they want in a handset. A music handset comes geared for music, but still has a good standard of other features. We are seeing the emrgence of a business line with the M600 and again it is doing what it says on the tin, a handset that is aimed at business users without features that they don't need for work.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2006-09-13 15:26 ]
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Posted: 2006-09-13 16:21:18
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Hi Dragon Eye,
I have yet to experience the pleasure of a Nokia service centre be it good or bad. But the one 10mins from me seem very helpful and are going to call me once the N93 update is available only time will tell how good they actually are. I did make it quite clear i do actually hold all manufacturers with the same contempt. They all could and should do so much better.
Jmcomms i don't know which dealers you spoke to but the K800 problems are not just an odd occurance and mentioned on here. But the strangest one was mentioned here where the phone actually manages to send multiple text messages by itself, i believe the person on here was on O2 and i heard of 3 K800's today that were returned to my local T-Mobile store for doing this plus others that just died and refused to charge and no one in the store had even heard of ESATO. I must confess i have no idea what is going on or how this is even possible. Other models from other manufacturers are also not trouble free and that isn't right either.
I have had my N93 for 2 weeks now i have used every facility it has to offer except for shooting Video, i have had no crashes or freezes even on hot swapping Sims i have had no problems. the only problem i experienced was being unable to open a picture that was sent via bluetooth and i can live with that for now . If i had the problems that some experience it would of gone straight back without hesitation. I really wanted a M600 from first site of it but had i got one i am sure it would of gone back by now and the same goes for the P990. Don't get me wrong if the people with these phones are happy with them and willing to wait for newer firmware good luck to them its just not for me.
This thread should actually be called What is wrong with mobile phone manufacturers and why do they suck instead but that is just MO.
Marc
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Posted: 2006-09-13 16:41:37
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On 2006-09-13 15:34:51, jmcomms wrote:
I've just spoken to someone on our sister, trade, title and the phones giving dealers the most grief at the moment are the Nokia N70 and 6280. On the 6280, it's a hardware issue - not software.
I haven't yet experienced a Sony Ericsson fail, but I'd be prepared to acknowledge that nothing is perfect. However, I wouldn't trust a forum where few people will come on saying "Just to let you know, my phone is fine". It's a SE forum - people will come here to moan about problems!
As an aside, the LG K920 is based on a Korean phone that's nearly 1.5 years old. It's exclusively available through Carphone Warehouse and I believe they got 600 - which sold out very quickly. It takes fantastic photos, but is rubbish as a phone. LG are obviously testing the water with a view to releasing something more European friendly - but I'd still go for a D900, K800 or N73 over one.
in addition to the above statement, several of my friends at cpw (store manager's) report quite a high return rate on the new LG. It's user interface, in my opinion, is horrid...but regardless, it will still sell well....
I have never considered purchasing an LG, Simply because, during my time as a store manager (a year ago), i have never seen so many LG handsets returned with numerous faults....
As far as sony ericsson's go..when the k750i launched, i took the plunge and purchased one...which had boot up issue's...three k750i's later, it was sorted...i Can't say ive had any particular issue's with any nokia's ive owned
right back to 2001 (having owned 7 in total) with the exception of the n80
(extremely poor battery life and memory leakage)...
In the end, at some point, we all have issue's, regardless of which manufacturer we buy from..thats just how it goes...
It's perfectly ok to moan about a certain brand, but remember that the issue's you may have had with one brand, won't be everybody elses experience.....
sometimes, it gets a bit tiresome seeing posts which slag of manufacturer's to the hilt...real tiresome.
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Posted: 2006-09-13 17:27:16
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What a really interesting thread, from a comical debate to some useful information
I read it from page one and really made me
at the earlier pages and who started the the topic hasn't even shown up again
I mostly agreed with this....
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On 2006-09-10 20:16:00, whizkidd wrote:
You dont like SE
You dont buy SE
WE DONT CARE
We like SE
We buy SE
YOU SEEM TO BE MIGHTY PISSED OFF!
As for me also, it's all about personal taste and need, when I decided to buy a new phone, i read some reviews or asking for some opinion and by then knowing what the plus and minus about the phone i bought and minimize the complaint in the future.
I'm currently using
w810i coz i know exactly it could satisfy my simple need for music, camera, java games and most of connectivity type (except 3G). I won't bother for lack of another features which i currenly don't need. Size, weight and basically the look also hold an important part for me, i just couldn't stand the weight of say Nokia 3360 and the gigantic size of most of Nokia's Phones
But, my sister is a big Nokia fan who prefer those weight and gigantic size phone instead of
Nothing i said could convince her to buy a
and vice versa
So, it's really personal
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Posted: 2006-09-13 18:33:30
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when i decided to get a cellphone, i went to all the service center of all brands to find out wich phone is less pron to problem, the more phone and pepole in line of repair the more that brand sucks, thats what make me to go SE and not nokia or other brand,
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Posted: 2006-09-13 19:17:51
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i wouldnt say that other brands have less problems then se...
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Posted: 2006-09-13 19:18:56
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back to the n73 vs k800i since it seems to be the heavyweights for comparison..
if i was a regular know nothing customer and walked into a store..
and i saw a n73 and k800... and the sales person told me a few things..
"cybershot" would probably stick into my head more then "smartphone"
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Posted: 2006-09-13 19:43:17
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On 2006-09-13 19:43:17, DragonEye wrote:
back to the n73 vs k800i since it seems to be the heavyweights for comparison..
if i was a regular know nothing customer and walked into a store..
and i saw a n73 and k800... and the sales person told me a few things..
"cybershot" would probably stick into my head more then "smartphone"
no no..."dickhead" would be stuck in your mind...as most sales people don't know what smartphones are..lol
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Posted: 2006-09-13 19:46:23
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On 2006-09-13 19:46:23, jj03 wrote:
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On 2006-09-13 19:43:17, DragonEye wrote:
back to the n73 vs k800i since it seems to be the heavyweights for comparison..
if i was a regular know nothing customer and walked into a store..
and i saw a n73 and k800... and the sales person told me a few things..
"cybershot" would probably stick into my head more then "smartphone"
no no..."dickhead" would be stuck in your mind...as most sales people don't know what smartphones are..lol
lol and then trying to explain it to me would be even worse... CYBERSHOT IT IS! lol
or like the moto v3 crowd.. i want the one that's pink
either way the smartphone aspect to the average joe doesn't really sell i think.. if anything people buy it cause it's NOKIA.. not cause it's s60
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Posted: 2006-09-13 20:00:59
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lol..very true..yet, around my area, i see alot of lad's and ladies with smartphones..i often wonder if they know what they have actually got in their hands..
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Posted: 2006-09-13 20:04:03
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