News Forum Phone database

> New Topic
> Reply
< Esato Forum Index > Manufacturer Discussion > Nokia > N8 vs Satio - Camera Shootout Bookmark topic



At your wish:















--
Posted: 2010-12-15 02:56:21
Edit : Quote


My final nightshot photos in this thread..
I spent too much time on this topic while these two cameras are meant for casual use.. Last come the nightshots..
However, I'm lacking time to go outside shooting mid-day.. Besides, we haven't seen the sun here for over three weeks!!
Even at night, it's been for few days now an orange sky! Imagine that. Orange. Well, it's not the first time this happens, but really bad timing for my comparison.

Anyway, I'll post my final comments on nightshots then just post the photos:

N8 no flash:
At well lit scenes, it performs just right. Beats the Satio in every aspect. Color rendering, noise, and detail.
In low-light scenes, it suffers white balance problems. Sometimes even at some manual setting, it's is not fixable!

By well lit, I mean either a good lit room, or enough lit street, building, or parking place for instance..
By low-light I mean extreme conditions. Wide and far nightshots.. In a forrest under a moon light, dim room, etc..

It's not a consistent overall performance. And this is due to the post-processing algorithm and the hard to tackle approach by Nokia, that is fast SSs and high ISO settings..

So somehow, the N8 functions at two different modes in nightshots. Well lit scenes, and low-lit ones. Weird algorithm to say the least. But teh way I see it, has its pros and cons.
Pros are some appealing results at times, and cons are white balance problems.

But for any casual scene, the N8 does just great.

Satio no flash:
Very consistent performance. However, with the 1 sec SS it gets really hard to handle the Satio. One either needs some really steady hands or a tripod-like stand..

Performance is good, but suffers underexposure at half the times. And playing with the setting isn't a good idea by the Satio.
Always suffers bad detail handling as well.

And I was wrong about the noise handling.. The fact that the N8 starts to produce less noise by extreme conditions, is because of N8's inconsistency, and different performance at extreme condtions.. While the Satio just goes down at constant rate in performance with extreme conditions.
However, because the Satio already uses some aggressive noise reduction, at extreme conditions where the noise level go high, the detail is all f*cked up!

The best thing about the Satio in nighshots, it's automatic settings and post-processing are great and consistent.


N8 with flash:

Handles noise and detail pretty well. Specially given that it has a smaller Xenon module!
Produce accurate color rendering.
However lacks flash uniformity in some photos. That is it centers the flash in the middle and it's easy to notice that the scene isn't lit equally all over!

As to night portraits, which is matters the most for me, and to many others to be honest, much more than night photography and other camera uses... In portrait, I'm very pleased with the N8!
Very professional flash performance.
No over-exposure whatsoever.. The color tones are very accurate.. And concentrates on the faces/bodies and discard the background in the lighting process.

I'm sorry I can't post any of the photos.. Maybe some later in the photos thread..

Satio with flash:

Decent performance. However, it produces those colorful photos which could be all appealing and warm felt by the eyes, but not realistic.
I still remember, by shooting those dumbles on the ground by the Satio, I had to look again at the ground wishing somehow I'll be seing th same ground in the photo. Unfortunately it wans't that way.

Details inferior to N8, and noise differs from scene to scene! Depends on how the N8 produces the noise. Sometimes it produces better noise and better detail, other times better details only..

Night portraits are all good.
But in comparison to the N8, it over-exposes a bit!
One could easily notice it on the faces.. In general not bad at all, but inferior to the N8.

And as this really matters to me, I'm glad to have a good replacement to the Satio in this department..


The photos (Satio then N8):





Too bad I shot a blurry photo on the Satio! But was in a hurry and couldn't shoot again. But it's clear where the Satio was going anyway..
Here's comes the disadvantage of the slow SSs.. One really need to pay attention and hold the Satio firm, which is not easy to do with bare hands.

----------------------------------





White balace problem with the N8. I admit, Satio wins here. Vit, do you feel better?

----------------------------------





----------------------------------





----------------------------------





No flash here..
Just a medium range nightshot..
But also turned up blurry on the Satio!
Anyway, one could still compare the color rendering and exposure in those photos..

----------------------------------





Here one could notice the effect of the larger Xenon on the Satio.
However, go full resolution with the Satio's photo, and notice the color distortion on the white snow!
Is that natural or add any good or special effect? Heck no.

Also, imagine yourself being there instead. Do you really think the scene would seem that colorful as the Satio depicted it to be?

----------------------------------





Again a blurry photo by the Satio. My hands were freezing and couldn't hold them steady.
Anyway, even on the N8 one could notice blurrinnes in the trees. I believe it's because of auto-focusing rather than hand shake. The buildings behind are very well in focus.. That's why.

--
Posted: 2010-12-15 06:51:02
Edit : Quote


@ Vit

I have to give it to you regarding the first photo.. Pretty decent photo. But you did use some manual post-processing..
And you definitely left the Satio fixed on some stand for that one or two seconds!!

As to other photos, good ones, but as casual photos (no extreme conditions) the photos coming from the N8 are more appealing..

And then, I thought those lamps are orange?
(sixth photo..)
--
Posted: 2010-12-15 07:14:02
Edit : Quote


halfway press and steady shot. should help you
--
Posted: 2010-12-15 09:51:11
Edit : Quote


@ false_morel:

Yeah, that last pic of mine had too much humidity... It´s half way between yellow and orange.

Regarding my last set of pics:

Yes, the first was taken with the Satio holding still over the parapet. But have you seen the detail on the second shot? Too bad that I´ve got some light source coming from the left and then getting into the frame. As for the rest, only the last one was also taken with self timer. All others were taken hand held.

In the meantime, I´ve got some even more extreme comparison shots:

First, the N8 (ISO-1114 - 1/8s SS):

Un-processed:


Post-processed with Topaz Denoise v5 (latest version) with maximum debanding (vertical and horizontal) and maximum color noise cleaning - doesn´t look much better, though (couldn´t get rid of those yellow bubles):


Now, the Satio (ISO-2000 (!) - 1/8s SS):

Un-processed:


Post-processed with Topaz Denoise v5 (latest version) with some color cleaning, black adjust and 1/3 strengh (still had more noise to reduce - prefered to leave some, though):


My point is:

They´re both bad. It´s a question of taste. One may prefer the N8 shot. I feel that they are equivalent. The N8 has more appealing colors. The Satio has better noise distribution.

NOW: One thing needs to be noted - the Satio does very well at High ISO. This shot has double the ISO level when compared to the N8 and still holds its own against the Nokia. Pretty mature post-processing. Almost none Digital Exposure Compensation. That´s remarkable.

I guess that both shots are not useful for more than, let´s say, VGA prints. At that resolution, one would not identify the superiority of the N8 when it comes to resolved resolution. At the same time, all those artifitial chromatic aberrations would appear greater in the N8 sample, whereas the Satio´s would have a slight grain.

The only thing to note is that I hoped that the N8 would simply and greatly outperformm the Satio. I am just disapointed by its low light performance. Damian Dinning said that they would do almost no post-processing, and that´s NOT TRUE.

--
Posted: 2010-12-15 13:06:07
Edit : Quote


is anyone else having issues seeing some of the photos on this page?
--
Posted: 2010-12-15 16:08:38
Edit : Quote




You think it's easy?

And I consider myself to have two firm steady hands.

Look at the bush photo for instance. I went down on my knees, put my both elbows on my legs, pressed the shutter button half way (although no focus at nightshot mode with the Satio) just to make sure I'm all steady and ready, then clicked it all and tried to stay fixed as much as I can.
Still, didn't work out!

Of course the freezing temperatures didn't help me at all. Try shooting with your hands freezing cold and you know what I mean. And for obvious reasons I couldn't wear any gloves either.

---------------------------

@ Jake

Yes, there are problems!
I'm not sure whether it's Imageshack or Easto though!
Maybe you could try later, as the links are all good. No need to change any. And on Imageshack they're all showing well.

UPDATE: Mine are all good now. Vit's photos are all f*cked up. One link is dead, others just not showing. (I think it's Esato).

--
Posted: 2010-12-15 18:50:05
Edit : Quote


with google chrome it took me 20s to load this page.

@mrfalse_more
i get your point. i know its not for just only one shot.
--
Posted: 2010-12-15 18:56:31
Edit : Quote


P.S.: I´ve provided lower res pics in order not to put a heavy load on the page. If you wanna see the originals, just ask me for them.

Here´s another set of night comparison shots (this time I´ve used the Satio in Auto Mode, instead of Night Mode):

N8 (ISO -339-~400):

I have lowered the EV to -1,5 in order to get the gas lamps colors right. Again, there´s not sufficient slow shutter to get the exposure right.







Satio (all @ ISO-500):

Despite the lens resolution advantage, I don´t see much advantage in having a sensor that big when it comes to noise... For low light shots, I still reckon that the Satio performs better in a greater number of occasions in terms of color accuracy, noise distribution and even in dynamic range.







Now, another comparison to show how the N8 post-processing mess up with the whole thing:

Satio:

EV lowered just a bit. ISO varies from ISO 250-320.









N8:

The Digital Exposure Compensation plays hard here, even with EV lowered to -1,5. There´s nothing left to do.

You also get a lot of band noise right donw at ISO 251 (!!). The thing with this kind of noise is that you notice it even when the pic is seen at lower resolutions. In these case the pic is lowered to VGA resolution, and it´s still pretty much visible, whereas the Satio manages to provide a much more mature result.

Besides that, look at the SATURATION BOOST I was talking about at the tip of those flowers. It seems that there´s no way of getting rid of it:

ISO 250:


ISO 251:


If we lower the EV to -2.0, then it starts to get thing a little bit better, but then we don´t have enough exposure time to play with:

ISO 204:


ISO 212:


I am still holding up a bit just waiting for the promissed N8´s camera revision. If it won´t address this extremely heavy Digital Exposure Compensation issue, then I will definitely sell my N8.

I guess that they are compensating the exposure digitally up to 60-70%, and that´s not only for higher ISO speeds. My guess is that the trigger for that compensation is the Shutter Speed, as we´ve got it right down at even ISO 200.

That´s a shame and it does not corroborate Damian´s statement of 'natural looking pictures'.

--
Posted: 2010-12-18 15:41:31
Edit : Quote


Here is an example to clarify those two modes the N8 works at in normal and extreme low-light conditions:

Both photos at automatic setting:

Extreme low-light condition (the street wasn't lit intensively)



Inaccurate color rendering due to aggressive brightening post-processing algorithm.

Meters away at the main street which was lit considerably better:



Accurate color rendering. Lacks a bit saturation. And also some detail compared to what the N8 is capable of.

-------------------------------

Here is the night scene mode:



Correct color rendering. Accurate saturation and better detail.
I didn't have the Satio with me, but in this scene it would usually under-expose and doesn't come close to the N8's performance.
In that other more extreme scene, the Satio would go for a completely other approach where the slower SS would help achieve better color rendering and saturation..

In conclusion, those two cameraphones are obviously never meant for those extreme conditions.
Specially the ones I shot in my previous night comparison.
Even the high-end cameras aren't meant for this type of photography in general.

Only DSLR would do good.. With tripods, extremely slow SSs, huge sensors, and high-quality optics..

In normal night scenes, the ones where some well lit obkects are shot at night, the N8 and Satio achieve very good results. The N8 slightly better..
--
Posted: 2010-12-18 18:03:37
Edit : Quote

---

New Topic   Reply

Forum Index