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On 2008-03-22 16:35:15, max_wedge wrote:
but you guys keep refering to Nokia to elucidate us as to why SE is so wrong! Don't you see that is what I keep reacting to?
If you want me to focus on SE, then don't bring Nokia into it. Look back in the thread, I think you will find Makbil was the one who started the Nokia comparisons.
Yes, because Nokia is a direct competitor. I don't really care about specific brands, if you want you can call it Mokia, Notorola or Pamsung...
Anyway, I agree with you guys SE have performed abysmally. I don't agree that they are unethical though, that's too strong. You can argue all you like but I don't accept that words or phrases such as "vengence", "evil", "unethical", "stole my money" as have been used in this thread are either constructive or a true reflection of the situation.
They are descriptive words, you don't need to take them literally. However, "unethical" is one I truly agree with - it may apply to other companies too, you might argue money has no ethics and you would be right though. When they sell us a product, they undertake certain responsibilities such as providing what was specified and fw and hw support. We buy these products because the company standing behind its product is going to assume these responsibilities. Saying "game over" and running away from these responsibilities is definitely not ethical.
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Posted: 2008-03-22 21:18:59
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In my view the most you can expect from any OEM if they can't get a product right is your money back. I don't believe you have recourse to make them fix it even if they released it with the expectation it could do a certain thing.
To fix it, maybe it would take so many resources it would seriously comprimise the development of new models, which stands to break the company's growth and also impact on the support that can be given to OTHER existing models and customers.
In such a case I believe you are entitled to your money back and no more.
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Posted: 2008-03-23 02:49:07
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On 2008-03-22 20:57:17, Dogmann wrote:
I only respond to what you claim about the Nokia and the N95 i have never said look at Nokia aren't they perfect but i do correct you on the terrible state you seem to believe the N95 is in. As you constantly try and tell us the P990 is no worse which frankly is just absurd, as for SE removing features it can't make work logic dictates that you would have something working and tested before claiming this is what your device will do.
I thought I did end up agreeing that P990 is worse? Sorry if I didn't make that clear. My main argument is that N95 had problems also, and while not as bad, the fact is there are still N95's out there that can't run more than one application reliably. Blame the average end user for being dumb as pig shit for not klnowing about updating firmware, if you like, but the end result is the same. I'm not saying it's as bad as P990, but the fact is N95 HAS had it's own problems.
Look, you all want to feel anger at SE, that's fine, but I don't agree that it is warranted to be angry, that's my opinion. I understand why they feel so, but don't agree with people that SE are unethical over this situation. I think it's much better to move on now. I'm not trying to excuse SE, I'm just saying you either give up on the P990 and wait to see what G-series, X1, P5 are like, or buy a P1 (which works pretty much as advertised), or find another OEM who have a suitable phone and just get on with it.
Seriously if I had owned a P990 I'd have got my money back and after waiting til it was stable would have got the P1. And tbh I prefer the P1 over the P990.
Now you would of thought that SE really would of learnt from the P990 experience to really bug test their devices before releasing them to the public, so how did they managed to launch both the P1 and W960 still with known bugs from previous devices is truly a screw up of unbelievable magnitude.
I agree SE are missing an opportunity to improve their testing processes. "screw up of unbelievable magnitute" is an over exaggeration imo; I would just say it's a really bad screw up. But essentially I agree with you.
Really is it any wonder so many have now moved to a different manufacturer for their device and why peoples faith and confidence in SE is so low as you just can't even trust they will support the product for even year if they feel they can't do any more or want you to buy a new device. So to many of us the recent announcement of SE's dropping profits comes as no big surprise and it will be interesting to see if it is just s blip and how well the new UIQ devices are picked up.
I think there is some truth in that but the SE smartphone market is not the lions share of their market. The small to midrange devices which are quite reliable and well tested (with one or two exceptions) are going strong.
There might be low confidence amongst SE UIQ users, but this doesn't extend to the low to mid range. The low proift margin may not be attributable to the poor performance of SE on UIQ devices, infact I suspect it's more to do with Nokia continuing success rather than specific SE failures.
Even if SE fix up their high end UIQ woes, I don't think this will make much difference to their market placement. However if G-series is a success, I think that will have a big impact. G-series is a mid range UIQ - and if successfull SE stand to make a big splash in the market. G-series stands to compete strongly with N8x series, with the advantage of touchscreen (and it will be interesting to see it duke it out with Nokia Touch)
G-series if successfull will lead to a revolution in SE midrange, with UIQ becoming the norm in this segment, thereby offering a smartphone competitor to N8x in the mid range market PLUS adding touch capability, which is the latest FAD in the market (thanks to iphone).
So my eyes are on the G-series.
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Posted: 2008-03-23 03:24:22
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A question comes to mind, what's the point of developing new models if they don't work?
Because SE didn't fix P990's problems, they propagated to every UIQ3 device SE has made since...
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Posted: 2008-03-23 03:24:40
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@Max
I really can't agree with go read the K850 firmware thread and how many people have had 3,4,5 devices before giving up and moving to another brand in disgust. These people will not come running back to SE as they have no confidence or trust in them any longer and really who can blame them.
The K850 has now been out over 5 months had numerous firmwares and yet the problems still persist for so many just how can that be good for SE's Flagship imaging device. Whilst i appreciate it was a new platform but how about this for an idea you don't release devices until you know they are good enough to be released as this will lose you even previously loyal customers faster than anything else and this behavior appears to be what SE now stands for and is happy with.
As for the G series indeed they are great entry to mid level smart phones but for devices launching mid 2008 the lack of HSDPA is frankly a joke especially when some non SE smart phones are already getting this. Why would a Walkman phone need it but not a smart phone? it just makes no sense and i don't accept that equipping these devices with HSDPA would involve unreasonable costs. What it would do is make them far more desirable especially when all round most devices have HSDPA especially smart phones.
The one thing SE has is very loyal and devoted fans but when these users start getting fed up and leaving it really doesn't look good for SE. The X1 has great spec's for now but i am willing to bet by the time it launches it will be nothing exceptional and will of been equalled if not surpassed.
The next UIQ announcement is due rumor has it in May but just when will these devices launch very late this Year if we are lucky more likely next Year and again what is announced may be great spec's for now but by launch most probably again matched or bettered.
Marc
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Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-23 02:59 ]
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Posted: 2008-03-23 03:54:14
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On 2008-03-23 03:54:14, Dogmann wrote:
@Max
I really can't agree with go read the K850 firmware thread and how many people have had 3,4,5 devices before giving up and moving to another brand in disgust. These people will not come running back to SE as they have no confidence or trust in them any longer and really who can blame them.
I agree they screwed up with K850 also. SE are really bad at bringing out anything new. It takes them several iterations to get it right, and K850 is A200, a new platform.
K850 is only one phone. However, on reflection, I think you are probably right, K850 problems would have impacted SE marketshare. It's more likely that K850 problems are responsible for SE slipping than the P990 (even though the P990 was a worse cock-up, the K850 is more recent so more likely to explain the current slip by SE.)
This is something they can recover from if they get A200 right on the next Kseries (or C series - whatever carries on the Cybershot name)
RE: HSDPA, I admit some frustration with SE over the lack of HSDPA, but I'd still buy a G series myself because the price structure of mobile broadband limits me to uses for which standard 3G is suitable. Everything I use a 3G phone for now, 384Kbps is suitable. Once prices really start to drop, then I will want to use my phone for more serious data consumption.
I believe the G series will be a market success despite lack of HSDPA. What I will say however, and you can quote me
if SE don't get HSDPA sorted in UIQ devices by the middle of 2009, then it will start to impact their marketshare very badly. I believe this because it's my view that 2009 will be the year that true mobile broadband (aka faster than 384Kbps) will really take off in the west and it will no longer be possible for OEM's to ignore HSDPA.
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Posted: 2008-03-23 04:53:14
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How about EDGE,you go out go and buy latest and greatest sonyericsson smartphone to find that it doesn't support EDGE.
I understand it doesn't matter everyone,but Im sure it will be of concern in countries/places where 3G or its coverage is absent.
Although not directly related to topic I must say again,they have milked for more than enough (current products/platform),high time to intro something better.
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Posted: 2008-03-23 06:07:48
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Hi Max
The thing is whilst HSDPA may be expensive in Aus here in the UK it is supported well by most of the Networks and available via fixed price data plans so why would some one restrict them selves to 384kbps when they could for the same cost get up to 3.6mbps especially on a smart phone which is a data centric device.
HSDPA is hardly a secret and i would imagine most that are looking at smart phones or even normal phones that are interested in Web Browsing want the best speed and experience possible. Personally i find the omission of HSDPA in the G series to be yet another major mistake, lots of other devices at this price range have it even SE non smart phones have it and i really do believe this will not attract new users to SE leaving only there existing users that may go for it hardly a way to gain market share which they are intended to do.
Marc
_________________
Nokia E90,8GB SDHC, Fring, Tom Tom 6
Dogmanns Nokia E90 Blog @
http://dogmann.vox.com/
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2008-03-23 09:38 ]
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Posted: 2008-03-23 10:37:00
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@ max
Well go get a V640i/K630i then.
HSDPA
A200 with no bugs that I've found so far
Greatly improved Media player
Good camera quality and Awesome Camera Settings UI
Black or Gorgeous Havanna Gold
40% of K850i price here in NZ, and $100 cheaper than 2.5G Nokia 5310 Xpress Music
Its out NOW!
Become only the 3rd Esatonian to own one (after myself and Xellar)
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[ This Message was edited by: carkitter on 2008-03-23 10:06 ]
[ This Message was edited by: carkitter on 2008-04-01 12:29 ]
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Posted: 2008-03-23 11:03:20
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tempted carkitter
But I like the idea of the G900 - Touchscreen in a candybar - I've been waiting for this for years.
@dogmann, I hear your argument, but I don't agree. It's my view that, not just in Aussie but in most of the west and also india (going by aksd in the other thread it seems to be the same), the vast majority of phone users don't even plug into a computer. So while it's data centric to people like us on these forums who like to get the most out of our devices, the majority just don't go to that effort.
Once there are real marketable services that the average joe will be interested in, HSDPA will come into it's own.
This in my estimation, will take untill mid 2009.
For myself, I will be keenly interested in the X1 for my HSDPA use, to replace my current HP HW6900 WM device, and the G900 to replace my K800 as my everyday phone. Candybar is my preferred formfactor for everyday use. And for everyday use I don't need HSDPA. For business and computer geeky kind of uses (which is where I use more serious data consumption) I don't mind having a second phone.
Maybe if The phone that replaces G900 has HSDPA, I will drop the WM device, but probably I will always have some kind of WM hanging around.
I do admit that I personally wish SE would get their shit together on HSDPA in UIQ. It would be lovely for me (and many SE fans on this forum) if G900 were to have HSDPA. But I don't believe the average end user is yet to really take advantage of HSDPA and untill they do SE still has some time to catch up.
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Posted: 2008-03-24 11:33:39
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