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On 2005-03-17 10:58:09, mib1800 wrote:
I think u r taking my response to wyrus out of context. I'm not labelling anyone inept. In fact, the reverse is true. I'm saying those above 50 years are very capable in making full use of smartphone if they wanted to because the internet is just a mouse click away.
That is specious reasoning. Just because someone may use the internet does not mean that they use a smartphone. Equally if someone knows how to use Outlook, does that make them any more capable of using a smartphone? I think you are trying to create a technical link, which really doesn't exist.
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It is always your conjecture that those who bought smartphone are not interested in smartphone features. You use this as the basis in all your arguments. I doubt very much this point can be proven in a statistically manner. I may be wrong. If you have any statistics to back this up, then your argument can be much more convincing.
I see that despite repeating myself numerous times you still do not understand my point of view. I shall reiterate it and try to make it clearer ...
It isn't my conjecture that those who buy smartphones are not interested in smartphone features, merely the majority, not everyone as your statement implies.
The point can be proven in a statistical manner if one considers for a moment that the largest increase in sales, on a percentage basis, was by RIM, which is almost exclusively marketed towards the business community in Europe. Nokia shows a 122% growth in your figures, hardly indicative of a huge upsurge in smartphone popularity when one considers that many of these sales will have been attributable to the following causes:
User upgrades - a smartphone being given free to a user, who likely isn;t interested in it as a smartphone, but does want a nice shiny new phone for free.
Large selection - with 14 handsets that can be described as smartphones on the market (there may be more), Nokia have created a situation, in which it is very likely that one will be buying a a smartphone irrespective of one's desire to own one.
Default issue for business - many businesses use Nokia handsets and use them by default, issuing their employees with new handsets each year.
The next biggest increase was from Motorola with 35%, but again one must wonder at the nature of such figures. How much of this growth can be attributed to the sale of Motorola smartphones on cheap deal with 3G networks for example? How many of these sales can be attributed to 3G customers buying a Motorola smartphone because it was perhaps the best looking handset available to them?
A 5% increase by the 'others' seems somewhat out of place here. If customers were indeed opting for smartphones enmasse because of their smartphone capabilities then one would imagine that there would be a similar increase in sales across all manufacturers who sold a smartphone device, yet we don't see this. Where are the Siemens fans? The SE fans? A trend is only a tend when it applies to all involved, these figures seem very much skewed in favour of both RIM and Nokia, who both have obvious advantages with regards to the business sector and Nokia has a huge advantage in flooding the market with smartphones.
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I have brought out many indicative factors (in this and other thread) which can provide this indirect prove. E.g.
Let's examine the proof ...
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1) S60 sales has increased tremendously in excess of 200% annually. This is much more that the general growth of phone sales.
Which proves what? Nothing except that S60 phones are selling well. It says nothing regarding the intentions of buyers or the usage patterns for such devices.
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2) Handango is reporting a monthly increase of 20% in the sales of Symbian based software.
Which proves what? That they are selling more, again it does not actually give us any real information, such as who is buying that software. Is it the same people who are causing this increase? How many of them are first time buyers who buy one item and nothing more? Has this increase been linked to any corporate event e.g. replacement of an entire company's mobile phone 'fleet' with smartphones?
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3) Continuous increase in new software targetted at S60.
There is also new software released for Apple and Linux each year ... An increase in available software is not indicative of how many people are using it; dedicated customers could very well be keeping such industries afloat.
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4) Dedicated section for S60 (with many postings) in many forums.
What is this supposed to prove exactly? That mobile phone enthusiasts wish to talk about topics related to mobile phones? Hardly a surprise there! The mobile community is not a good mark to judge popular trends by in many circumstances.
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5) Adoption of S60 by other manufacturers such as Siemens, Panasonic Samsung and few others.
As has been mentioned earlier such adoptions have hardly been sweeping successes. One has to wonder why Samsung, a huge presence in the mobile market doesn't have more smartphones on sale ...
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Posted: 2005-03-17 14:42:57
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@dave_uk
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Either way, that is using real statistical evidence to support your argument, rather than just churning out figures that you may quite easily have made up - perhaps you could learn something, Chief Wallah Wallah
I have brought out those points as they are. It is just that u have a fanboy mentality which in the first instance is to disbelieve anything that is not palatable to what you perceived is the truth.
To use mockery when your assertion is called into question is downright immature, Chief Boo Boo.
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Posted: 2005-03-17 16:19:02
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Ah, I see the power of cognitive thought has deserted you. Shame, as I said before, I must compliment you on a battle well-fought but rather timidly surrendered, since you have decided to stop arguing the facts of the case (as if you ever started) and have started crying foul about my tone...
I do not have a fanboy mentality (whatever the hell that is!), neither have I recently joined a Nokia forum to tell all the members (very eloquently of course, can't fault you there) that their phones of choice and indeed, by association, the raison d'etre of the website itself, is crap, because I have nothing better to do with my time.
My mentality is such that when I hear people spouting unadulterated and ill-researched waffle in the name of fact, I feel compelled to point out that it is exactly that. I am happy that I have now achieved my goal and will therefore leave you free to enlighten us all further with your spin and expert manipulation of language to your heart's content.
It's been fun
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Posted: 2005-03-17 16:28:48
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@scotsboyuk
I have told you I have no absolute proof. It is just indicative proof.
In the first place these stats are not direct proof and they cannot totally disprove your stance. What you r doing is trying to micro-analyse these stats and this will results in more speculations on your part.
Sure, some people who bought these smartphones may have upgraded or got it for free. So can you deduce from this that the "MAJORITY" who got the phone by these methods are not interested in smartphone features?
Nokia increase is 122%. What can it mean? The only thing I can be sure is more people are buying more Nokia smartphones (for whatever reasons) and the increase is more than normal phone. If this trend continues, the proportion of smartphones in Nokia's overall volume will increase.
Contrast to SE which has drop off from the chart. From this I can see that SE is NOT leading in the smartphone mobile solution (at least from the market share point of view).
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Posted: 2005-03-17 17:13:11
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isnt the problem here that there isnt any evidence to support either arguement.
s60 have increased in sales yes but as scots says it could be for many other reason and as mib100 says it could be because people demand more from there phone.
either way with out asking each own why they bought a s60 phone you have no idea one way or the other, its just how you chose to interept the figures.
i got a mate who just used his phone to text and call people he got a s60 phone and now has mp3 s on it organises his day with etc.
now thats does mean that everyone does that or that everyone doesnt.
if your a brand support and an se one at that your bound to come down on the side that say people only buy them as they are cheap or made by nokia etc
if you prefer nokia then your more likely to say people are utilising them.
i use s60 as i like it and its suits my budget and needs, but i dont care much for brands just want whats best for me.
as far as i can see this discussion is presenting figures and personal intereptations of these figures. unless someone has figures showing how many s60 owners utilise the phone and what parts its very hard to draw any real conclusive conclusions beyond sales figures which can be taken in both way.
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Posted: 2005-03-17 17:44:41
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@ Mib
I have exaggerated there a bit, but you get my point and the point scotsboy has been trying to get across for 18 pages
, most users do not have a Bluetooth or an IR dongle to transfer those files and the needed software.
Also you CAN'T compare a non-smartphone with a smartphone. They're two completely different categories. The same way you can't compare an s60 with a desktop PC
(pc winz)
And I have to agree with scotsboy on this one, when you want to buy a mega pixel phone from Nokia, let’s say 7610, you get s60. Most customers do not know this, they're interest in the camera and Symbian comes as a bonus.
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Posted: 2005-03-17 18:10:55
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On 2005-03-17 17:13:11, mib1800 wrote:
Contrast to SE which has drop off from the chart. From this I can see that SE is NOT leading in the smartphone mobile solution (at least from the market share point of view).
Who on earth said they were leading in the Smartphone mobile solution?
Where does it say 'Smartphone' in the title of this forum?
Have you been posting in the correct thread?
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Posted: 2005-03-17 18:29:05
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Overall i mean! Wow this thread is fantastic! Great posting...
I just only hope
doesn't mess up the pricing!
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Posted: 2005-03-17 21:37:34
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On 2005-03-17 17:13:11, mib1800 wrote:
In the first place these stats are not direct proof and they cannot totally disprove your stance. What you r doing is trying to micro-analyse these stats and this will results in more speculations on your part.
What I am trying to do is demonstrate the absurdity of your argument when reliant upon statistics. My own argument is equally as absurd in such circumstances.
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Sure, some people who bought these smartphones may have upgraded or got it for free. So can you deduce from this that the "MAJORITY" who got the phone by these methods are not interested in smartphone features?
Yes I can actually for a very simple reason, there is no proof to the contrary. That every mobile manufacturer isn't racing to produce as many smartphones as possible and that mobile phone networks are not rushing to implement features supporting smartphones indicates to me that there is no major demand for them yet. It is simple deductive reasoning.
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Nokia increase is 122%. What can it mean? The only thing I can be sure is more people are buying more Nokia smartphones (for whatever reasons) and the increase is more than normal phone. If this trend continues, the proportion of smartphones in Nokia's overall volume will increase.
Therein lies my point, Nokia are selling more smartphones because they are producing more, hence sidelining non-smartphones. As smartphones ar eproduced in ever greater numbers more are bought thus reducing sales of non-smartphones; a classic Malthusian model.
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Contrast to SE which has drop off from the chart. From this I can see that SE is NOT leading in the smartphone mobile solution (at least from the market share point of view).
No they are not, but then again they were never going to with one model released at a time with an initially high price tag. SE have not focused on smartphones in the same way as other manufacturers and ar eunlikely to do so for some time to come.
_________________
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
[ This Message was edited by: scotsboyuk on 2005-03-18 01:56 ]
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Posted: 2005-03-17 23:37:17
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@slattery69
i agree very much with what u said. I would just like to add to your statement that sometimes we would just have to do with whatever indirect/indicative data we have. Sometimes it is just impossible to get the exact data to dispel or approve certain fact.
I give a very simple example. Scientist do not have an exact formula to predict weather. All they have are indicative data such as air pressure, wind direction etc. And when they say it will rain tomorrow, we know for sure it comes with a certain probability.
Sometimes to demand EXACT DATA ONLY to approve/dispel fact seems very paranoid and not practical to situation at hand. And quite most of the time the indicative data are clues that direct or point you to the right direction where the fact lies.
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Posted: 2005-03-18 03:06:45
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