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< Esato Forum Index > Sony Ericsson / Sony > General > company profits fall 10% year-on-year Bookmark topic

the difference is that you two can't engage in a debate with anyone unless they agree with you. You put people down as fanboys or idiots when they don't accept your arguments as God given fact.

Case in point from dogmann:

1. It's his personal opinion that my argument is incorrect, and on that basis he labels my argument as weak and unsustainable.
2. He accuses me of being blind, yet I can justify every one of my arguments from a rational perspective (i may or may not be right but I do have a good reason for my view, not blind fanboyism)
3. He reacts to my support for SE as if it were fanboyism, this really irriates me since I am only expressing an opinion.

You guys accuse anyone who isn't openly critical of SE as fanboys and it's really quite immature.

You guys DON'T have a monopoly on knowledge or logic. The fact is 10% is neither here nor there, any person with common sense ought to be prepared to wait and see before making an assessment that SE are going down the gurgler on the bases of a drop of 10% in profit. I'm not arguing that it's a good thing, I'm just arguing that it's not as bad as you guys make out. I'm also not asking you to agree with me, I'm just putting my point of view, which you both consistantly reply to with derision

But you guys hail this as a sign of SE failure. This indicates to me a readiness to view any little failure by SE as a sign of major problems, because that's what you want to see.


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Posted: 2007-10-18 01:19:39
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@Max Wedge

You know what really is funny is all the things you accuse others of doing is exactly the behaviours you exhibit and the things that you do. If ever there was a case of don't do as i do do as i say you make it.

Your support for SE and anything they do is just so one sided you just can't see anything wrong even a fall in profits is OK by you and can just be explained away as can anything else that isn't right.

As i said look back at your post's and check the things you are happy to accuse others of and look at your behaviour before condemning others for the very things you are guilty of. Especially when most of the things you accuse others of is untrue. It's just amazeing how every one knows i hate SE and am such a big Nokia Fan Boy except for me.

Marc

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[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-18 01:12 ]
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Posted: 2007-10-18 02:10:10
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The keyword in that sentence is "everyone". If you are getting so much flack from "everyone" about being a Nokia lover and SE hater, wouldn't it make more sense to have a close look at yourself, rather than continue to interpret anyone who disagrees with your opinion as being "one sided"??

Seems to me that would make you just as one sided as you accuse me of being.

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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-10-18 11:39 ]
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Posted: 2007-10-18 12:34:43
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@Max Wedge

Maybe if i was weak and didn't know my own mind i would need to but as that's not the case i know exactly what and who i am really don't need any help on this at all.

Actually you are quite right i didn't mean everyone what i should of said is everyone that is a SE Fan Boy and can't bare any criticism of SE as that would of been far more accurate.

As this is no where near what the majority of sane Esato members think either thank goodness as if i really was those things i don't see how i could of possibly won Best Debater or receive the Pm's of support i do.

Marc

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Nokia E61, 2gb Sandisk, Fring, Tom Tom 6


Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER



[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-18 14:29 ]
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Posted: 2007-10-18 15:24:12
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that's good to hear dogmann. I am also not weak minded, I also know who I am and despite you trying to tell me again and again how one sided I am, I know I am not one sided. BTW, I'm quite aware of your title, you make it clear at the bottom of every post. I was voted third best debater by forum members, but let's not draw other people into our argument hey? Let's argue with eachother on merit alone or not at all.

You needn't say "everyone" if you don't mean it. You tend to talk in similiarly expansive terms when you talk about SE (ie: it's ALL bad and it's never good). On the other hand, you defend the N95 when people compare SE phones to it by inferring that they are fanboys or ignorant in some way whne they don't accept you logical argument. I could even quote you on several occasions as saying people must be stupid since they won't accept your statements as fact.

Here you accuse me of being blind and of always supporting SE:
"when it comes to SE you are blind and always have an answer as to why it is always a good thing for SE"
You know this is not true - recently I posted the SE sending info to apple thread, I also have criticised the lack of PLAY button on the K850. I could find more examples, but I know I am not one sided, and I know I don't "ALWAYS" support SE. You only notice what I say when it's in support of SE, so you think of me as "always" supporting SE. You see what you want to see.

On the thread topic, many companies suffer 10% profit drops without it being any big deal, so it's actually you who are being one sided here not me. It's you who 1. against all commone sense claim 10% drop is a big deal, and 2. because I argue it's not big deal you interpret me as claiming it's a good thing (when did I say that??) and 3. it shows you are biased yourself because you treat such a little thing as a sure sign of SE's demise in the market (despite their increased marketshare and increased numbers of handsets sold).
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Posted: 2007-10-19 02:13:51
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@Max Wedge

Well first Max if you were on the level of Opiate meds i currently have to take and slept 16-20hrs a day you may accept that i occasionally say the incorrect thing. Unlike you i am not or claim to be perfect i make mistakes and when i do apologise and correct them.

OK so hear we go again as you are now stating

"You needn't say "everyone" if you don't mean it. You tend to talk in similiarly expansive terms when you talk about SE (ie: it's ALL bad and it's never good). On the other hand, you defend the N95 when people compare SE phones to it by inferring that they are fanboys or ignorant in some way whne they don't accept you logical argument. I could even quote you on several occasions as saying people must be stupid since they won't accept your statements as fact."

Right lets get this straight once and for all because enough is enough i have already clarified your first point.

Your claim is all i say is SE is all bad where i have i ever said that and do you really want me to go find my post's were i praised the K850 prior to launch and also the T650. I have even praised the K800 as one of the best Camera phones after the initial EROM problem was fixed.

So how is that saying SE is all bad then yet another false accusation and lie from you.


But if you think i going to praise devices that dont deserve it IMO you are seriously mad. I am not going to praise UIQ3 as i don't think it is worthy of praise.


As to what you are happy to claim about the N95 really you want to me go dig out the post's where i have said the N95 may not of been perfect for everyone and accept that some people had units with problems and that is is not right and shouldn't happen.

So yet again more lies and attempts to twist the truth, and the only people i suggest are idiots are the other liars just like you that try and make it appear i say things and hold opinions i don't.

How can i possibly argue you with you you are devoid of moral substance and constantly tell lies start telling the truth and stop making out i say things i don't or haven't or start quoting my post's where all these things happen and not one liners out of context either.

Go on then either put up or shut as i am getting really bored of your constant lies and can't stand liars as i view them as the lowest of the low.

Now this bit is really funny

"You know this is not true - recently I posted the SE sending info to apple thread, I also have criticised the lack of PLAY button on the K850. I could find more examples, but I know I am not one sided, and I know I don't "ALWAYS" support SE. You only notice what I say when it's in support of SE, so you think of me as "always" supporting SE. You see what you want to see."

This is exactly what you are guilty of doing to me so how come it's OK for you to do it to me but you don't like it back then, Wow what a surprise, you have manged to criticize SE nearly as much as i have praised them.

A for the drop in profit it's a big deal because it is a reversal of what was a good trend and as people here were saying SE where going to overtake Motorola and be number two by the year end that's why it's a big deal.

Also because people like you were claiming it's the right path for SE to take and so successful that's also what makes it a big deal.

How you can say many companies drop 10% profit and it's not a big deal is really amazing go talk to 100 companies and ask them if they dropped 10% profit would it be a big deal i think you may get a shock for answer as i doubt one would say yeah it's no big deal it's only 10% profit.

So now go away and come back with evidence to support your claims because tomorrow i will find my post's that prove i both do praise SE and have criticised the N95 and prove once and for all for all to see you are a liar.

Marc




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Nokia E61, 2gb Sandisk, Fring, Tom Tom 6


Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER


[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-19 02:08 ]
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Posted: 2007-10-19 02:59:07
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imo se will be like once ///, u love it or u hate it. i am still n /// fan, ven it doesnt excist anymore in the mobile bit. to be honest, if se made less money as expected, its only their falour, cos next to increasing the cam mp in their fones, nothing new from them since a long time. the design is really boring and reflects asian trend, the wm feature was a wow 2 years ago, but now a days se should offer sg new...

i wouldnt even use se fone, if i would get payed for it and i dont use nokia cos i love it, more cos atm its the best option for my needs. of course its "normal" taht on esato the majority tries to defend an se fone, buteverybody should also see the beloved company as an outsider aswell...

se is doing sg very wrong, imo wihtin 10 years it will be bought by a third co ( samsung or whoever ), cos they cant get over a certain limit when it comes to biz and sale.

mobile fones are tending in the smart fone direction, se is nowhere atm, the p series fones dont offer the same develpoment as nokia symbians imo

se is ok when it comes to cam fones or music fones, but for a descent quality ppl still prefer digicams and for music wm, ipod etc, so its not enough to make better sales imo

according the discussion between max and dogmann, its was interesting to read, but imo beeing too personal to each other, lets post here according our personal experiences and thoughts, cos in the news they can write whatever they just want to. fact is fact, se makes some money with their fones, but i really donnow, where is gone the /// knowledge, technology and tradition, cos sony can offer a cam lense and music feature, but we are still talking here about fones, not multimedia gizmos...

se could come out really big, but imo atm in asia its far more beloved, then in europe
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Posted: 2007-10-19 03:31:03
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first let's get one thing straight. I have never lied to you, anything I say is my honest opinion or impression.

2nd, I am not accusing you of always saying bad about SE. I am acusing you of saying all is bad about SE only when people defend se. You go into the complete reverse argument almost as if you like disagreeing with poeple about SE. It's okay for you to say somethind good about SE, but when other people do you consistantly argue with them about it.


1. I never say I expect you to praise anything YOU don't think is worthy. I'm just getting sick of being accused of fanboyism whenever I say something is praiseworthy that you don't happen to agree with.
2. I disagree with you that UIQ is unworthy of praise, this doesn't mean I think that it has no problems. Everything with you is Either/Or, you can't seem to accept that things might have problems but also virtues.


Again it's only in SE versus N95 where you can't accept any bad thing about N95. If SE isn't involved in the discussion you are quite rational about N95.


I have never resorted to telling lies or trading insults; all my statements are honest impressions I have received from reading your posts. Wrong or right, I have never lied to you. And accusing me of being immoral is far from the standards that earned you the best debater my friend.


ever heard of a strategic defeat, that allows an army to advance further later? Or one step backwards two steps forward? It is common for companies (even highly successfull ones) to go though profit fluctuations, I challenge you to prove otherwise.


I am ready for you.


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Posted: 2007-10-19 03:34:48
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@Max Wedge

OK between here and our PM's we are starting to make headway so let's see just how far we can get in clearing this up shall we. I will try and remove any venom from my post's and just explain the facts as i see them.

First point i have never said you have lied to me what i say and stand by is you lie about me and what i say and what Mo's are. Every time i point this out to you not once have you come back and proved i have said any of the things you accuse me of, and despite my pointing this out you continue to repeat them.


Second point

Sorry but this is exactly what you have said with this

"You tend to talk in similiarly expansive terms when you talk about SE (ie: it's ALL bad and it's never good). "

So just what does this meant then it's seems pretty clear to me , yet now you say it means something completely different. Why and How?

I have already started going through my posts and will post links to where they are on this Forum if needed. They include the T650 and when the Black was shown i have stated if i was in the market for a non smart phone i would get one just how is this bad about SE.? I have said the K800 after the EROM problems is one of the best camera phones available again how is this bad against SE. I have said on numerous occasions not all N95's are perfect but also stated they are now where a bad as some try to make out. I have criticised Nokia for not putting the best Music Player in the E90. Yet you still maintain i never praise SE or criticise Nokia both of which i can prove are quite simply untrue which makes them you guessed it LIES.

Again with this

"1. I never say I expect you to praise anything YOU don't think is worthy. I'm just getting sick of being accused of fanboyism whenever I say something is praiseworthy that you don't happen to agree with."

But it perfectly OK for you to accuse me of being a Nokia Fan Boy whenever i criticise SE how does that work then especially when i keep pointing out your assumption is incorrect and have explained many times why, yet you continue to repeat these claims.

It's OK for you to do it to me but you but you don't like it being done to you this makes you quite simply a hypocrite.

About UIQ3

Why do i have to accept what you you see as virtues if in MO there aren't any and that's just it just because you disagree with MO doesn't make you right or me wrong. I don't accept UIQ3 and it's current device's deserve praise and i have explained my reasons many times and what's more stick by them.

This point you make next

"Again it's only in SE versus N95 where you can't accept any bad thing about N95. If SE isn't involved in the discussion you are quite rational about N95.

You claim repeatedly i never criticise the N95 now it turns out i just don't criticise it when compared to SE, so again it appears you are telling lies as i do criticise the N95 just not enough for you or in the right places according to you. So again it appears you are happy to lie about what i have said after all.

Now we move on to

"I have never resorted to telling lies or trading insults; all my statements are honest impressions I have received from reading your posts. Wrong or right, I have never lied to you. And accusing me of being immoral is far from the standards that earned you the best debater my friend."

Well sorry but you constantly repeat the same lies over and over and even though every time i point out to you your assumptions are incorrect and challenge you to prove that i have said any of these thing not once have you backed them up. So calling me a Nokia Fan Boy after i have told you numerous times i am not is not insulting then, yet me calling you an SE Fan Boy is. How does that work then?

Now here you really have completely lost the plot

"ever heard of a strategic defeat, that allows an army to advance further later? Or one step backwards two steps forward? It is common for companies (even highly successfull ones) to go though profit fluctuations, I challenge you to prove otherwise."

This is just the worst justification for you argument ever try answering the points i have made about your ridiculous claims about companies dropping 10% not being a big deal as this is what you claimed not me. Instead of analogies with armies and war.

No one is saying companies don't have fluctuations in their profits, but it is you that is making unsupportable claims and failing to back them up. You quite simply are never able to answer a challenge to any of your statements and resort to fresh statements instead.

Quite simply Max you continue to repeat LIES about what you think or believe i have said, you also continue to tell me what MO is or what i mean even when i have pointed out that you are incorrect and not once have you been able to back up your claims of what i say or MO is with a single quote.

You don't or can't even back the things you say up and you never answer anything. As i have said i can prove both the few positive things i have said about SE and the few negative things i have said about Nokia. Can you prove any of the claims you make about what i say and what MO is, as so far you are happy to repeat them but not once have you proved one.


This is why i am having ago at you because i am fed up of the constant lies in a feeble attempt to discredit my post's and opinons. Either post proof of your claims about what i say or desist from all these LIES.


Marc




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Nokia E61, 2gb Sandisk, Fring, Tom Tom 6


Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER


[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-10-20 14:28 ]
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Posted: 2007-10-19 12:53:31
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