News Forum Phone database

> New Topic
> Reply
< Esato Forum Index > Manufacturer Discussion > Nokia > N8 vs Satio - Camera Shootout Bookmark topic

To give you an idea about the horrific weather conditoin for the past month:

Satio:


N8:


Note:
That tree at the left in N8's pic isn't pretty at all!
However, for the sake of the comparison I had to leave it there.
Usually one either zooms (as I coudn't move to the right of the scene) or just crops..

Anyway, we're having that grey sky for consecutive five weeks now. With high humdity along, and snow showers every hour or two!

Just today the sun shone for few hours. I hadn't the time to go out for a shootout however.
As of tomorrow, we're back to the usual.
There is really no point going out shooting with two cameraphones in such conditions!
So I'm just dropping this comparison..

I don't want to end up with another comparison at extreme conditions like that night shootout and end up with frozen hands and f*cked up results from both cameras..

Just the final comments on two of the top three cameraphones so far.

Camera interface and setting:
The N8's interface is just ugly and not practical. It gives more options but lacks some major ones as well.
No instant access to the photos gallery. Can't zoom in the photo directly after capturing! No focusing options available for Auto-mode!! The AF does it all by itself.

Live view is terrible on the N8! And I simply can't get it. It uses the same sensor to preview the view that it uses to capture the photos!
The display of the live preview not only misleading, but also shows some f*cked up feed suffering from all sort of stripes and noise!

Photo quality:
Really amazing. But for a Carl Zeiss optics and a high-quality huge sensor this is expected.
Daylight photos, be it landscapes or portrait are all high-quality and professional.
Nightshots are decent. At extreme condition things might get nasty though.

Macro is very good, but could have been better. The Satio is definitely better in this department for instance.
Xenon performance, despite that many are complaining, I find it excellent. Only drawback is the flash lack of uniformity in some cases.. But could live with that. Flashing is always an artifical light source at the end. Impossible to achieve accurate natural results..

So that's it. I already sold the Satio to a friend.
Handing it in on Monday..
Might get a C905 as a secondary phone, or if SE decide to produce a successor in the coming months..

So there might come another shootout round..
--
Posted: 2010-12-18 18:22:57
Edit : Quote


The more I see this comparisons the more I get impressed by the tiny difference (yet a big one was expected) between Satio and N8. All that bs from Damien about N8's camera before the release and it ends up like any other camera phone: with ridiculous software faults (and this case is even worse, as it has already hardware faults reported). From what I've seen, the N8's performance at ISO 800 is quite bad, unusable.
--
Posted: 2010-12-20 05:22:41
Edit : Quote




All cameras nowadays are very close in delivering the best quality possible for their category!
Go look for some high-end DSLR comparisons, high-end compact cameras comparisons, and high-end bridge cameras comparisons..
The difference in interface and features is much greater than the difference in quality!
Same applies to the cameraphone category.

Not only that, there are now some high-end compact camera going against DSLR comparison..
The latest being the Powershot G12 vs the D7000 for instance..

And to surprise you, go google S95 vs N8!
And click the Flickr link where a user compared the two cameras in landscape cloudy scene!
You'd be amazed to witness the very slight difference..
The N8 wins in certain aspects, and the S95 wins in another.

About the S95: It's latest Canon's flagship in compact cameras!
It delivers the same quality as their bridge camera flagship the G12! So go figure.

That's not to mention that with decent post-processing applications nowadawys, one could achieve huge results..

I always look forward for camera comparisons, as in this department, there is no standard benchmark to compare with..
One has always to compare against the latest best in the category.

And I believe, considering all that, the difference in quality between the Satio and the N8 is obvious and big!

The N8 is a totally different approach than the Satio. Completely different sensor approach, better optics, and completely different post-processing algorithms...

Compared to the Pixon12, where it also features a wide-engle lens, and adopts a very similar approach overall, still, the N8 comes superior..

The only drawback for the N8 is a camera cover.. As it limits its practicality..
And that it's not impressive in macros..

Other than that, there is a considerable step forward in everything else compared to the Satio.


Nokia, or any other manufacturer, in producing a cameraphone are bound to make some compromises where they would neglect some of the cameras capabilites to deliver instead some automatic camera approach to satisfy the vast majority of the occasional consumers.
If 10 million customers end up with the N8 for instance, how many of those you would think will be all excited to try out all the setting configurations possiblities, to get the maximum out of the camera in hand, for some artistic or appealing scenes, and then go straight work themselves out with post-processing to even improve those photos?!!

A max of ten thousands maybe.. Out of 10 millions.. That's definitely less than 1%!!

Nokia already took the best compromise, and actually many are still complaining about the washed out colors in landscape, or cold photos in flash performance whereas this is more the proffessional way to go..

No one could make the perfect phone to satisfy everybody! Simple.
Camera-wise, the N8 is currently at the top, with some margin as well.. And will stay this way till Nokia release their successor as all other manufacturers dropped the production of high-end cameraphones for now.. (Thanks to Android and the iPhone of course)
Phone-wise, compared to the Satio, it's in a different league! I don't know how you dared to compare them there anyway.

As to Vit's photos, they are definitely misleading!
In his last comparison, he even went for extreme EV bias on the N8 to achieve similar results of the Satio.
The Satio, despite its longer exposure times, does under-expose in night photography almost all the time!

Other than that, regarding extreme low light conditions, I already stated that those two phones aren't meant for this.
I really can't get the point Vit wants to prove here!
He's working himself out with post-processing and extreme camera settings and extreme shooting conditions for nothing.
Just post some usual nightshots and twilights a usual user would shoot, and lets compare those on both, the N8 and the Satio. That's all what it takes to compare two cameraphones in night photography.
Instead, he gave me an HDR for the Satio, and other heavily post-processd photos!

Anyway, regarding this thread, I failed to deliver the comparison I was heading to, due to weather condition and lack of time, specially the scenes where the cameraphones are meant for, but the N8 is a clear and a big winner overall for me.
--
Posted: 2010-12-20 14:08:06
Edit : Quote




My last post contains two sets of comparison pics. which are you refering to? I will assume it regards the first one, am I right?

To begin with, I´ve noted that those were not full quality shots. In order to make justice to this comparison, here you´ve got full res pics:

Satio @ ISO-500 and 1/8s of SS:



N8 @ ISO-339 and 1/8s of SS (plus clear Digital Exposure Compensation):


Satio @ ISO-500 and 1/8s of SS:


N8 @ ISO-393 and 1/8s of SS:


Satio @ ISO-500 and 1/8s of SS:


N8 @ ISO-364 and 1/8s of SS:


First you´ve complained about me when the Satio with Night Mode to the N8 with Auto Mode. Completely different ISO, Shutter Speed, bla-bla-bla...

Now that I´ve used the Satio in fully Auto Mode you are still complaining about a supposedly biased view. I don´t know if you have taken note, but the Satio was @ ISO-500, and the N8 was at ISO-339, 364, 393.

Man, if I am biased, then you may call me the most stupid person on earth. How could I take a better HW, with both a bigger sensor and a superior lens, use it at a slower ISO speed and still think I would get a better result with an inferior HW at a faster ISO speed? I must be pretty stupid.

Oh, that was funny!

Here I´ve lowered the EV compensation not to match Satio´s result.

I´ve done that to get the exposure and the colors right, based on what I was seeing on its live preview. I also cannot stand the yellowish treatment it gives to those street gas lamps.

The N8 should not only be better. It should completely smash the Satio. Is that what we see? My point is the same as Zyde´s point. I see not much of a difference between these two.

Anyway, you also don´t seem to be keen on commenting the cases in which the N8 falls miserably, like the flower comparison shots.

About these shots you´ve talked about, I will take another set of pics with the Satio set to a higher EV level and the N8 set to EV=0. You could have asked me about that. No need to call me biased.

By the way, here´s a good sample to discuss. Quite noisy for an ISO-170 shot, don´t you think?



P.S.: Most of your low-light shots are all shaky and blurry, pal. For the sake of the primary intention of this thread I reckon they are completely useless.

--
Posted: 2010-12-20 21:02:07
Edit : Quote




WTF!?!?! You are indeed a crazy little guy...

I´ve mentioned explicity where I´ve uploaded post-processed pictures, and it was not only for the Satio.

BESIDES IT, THE POST-PROCESSING WAS ONLY TO DISMISS YOUR CARELESS STATEMENT THAT THE SATIO 'LEAVES NOTHING TO BE DONE WHEN IT COMES TO NOISE'. IT WAS ONLY TO PROVE YOU WRONG, GENTLEMAN. You don´t get things quickly, I suppose. Not even the most explicit argument of them all.

In fact, the heaviest post-process I´ve done was with the N8´s shot. You can conduct the same tests with similar conditions if you want it to.

Now, as for the most stupid statement ever written here @ the esato forum:

Where have I mentioned I´ve used HDR for the Satio?!??!

Be my guest and come to my city and I´ll take you to the same places I´ve been where I´ve taken those shots. You can take them by yourself.

Oh, I forgot. Your hand is way too shaky... They would all come out blurry or out of focus.

Anyway, thanks for all the quality shots you´ve taken, pal!

--
Posted: 2010-12-20 21:23:56
Edit : Quote




I described that comparison of mine as f*cked up myslef..
I know the photos turned out just terrible!!

Almost all photos on the Satio suffered blurrines. I had one bad flare photo with the N8 (bush photo), another terrible one at all aspects as the N8 was affected by a close large light source, and since I was in a hike in a forrest-like park, almost all the photos I took were about some extreme low-light scenes and both cameras suffered to deliver any good result.

However, one could still compare exposures and color rendering on those photos. And neglect the detail/noise department..

But this could only mean that putting the Satio in the nightmode scene while shooting hand-held isn't a good idea.
One could get away with one or two steady photos, but not the whole night!
Even if one takes some helping body positions to keep the hands fixed..


Anyway, I wont repeat the words again..
I clearly stated that I was looking forward to have some fun comparing those two cameras but failed big time doing so because of weather condition and lack of time.
I'm disappointed myself as I was excited at spending some little time experiencing with those two little cameras..

Anyway, no need to cry.
At least for me, the pics I took so far with the two cameras, specially the ones I usually take as in normal use of which portraits constitute the majority, left me more than satisfied with the N8. The Satio is definitely inferior in every aspect.
Maybe it's more inferior as a phone than as a camera, but that was expected as well.



First of all, I may have gone harsh with some comments concerning your input so far. But I made sure to maintain a respectful tone and discussion.
Using terms as "stupid" and "little" and mocking the photos I posted in that way, is very much disrespectful from your side.. I hope to read some positive reply in your next post regarding this point!!

Anyway, as to HDR, you didn't mention any.
I thought (or still think) you added such effect on the photo I praised..
If you haven't included HDR in your post-processing, then you earn real credits for such a pretty shot.

And by criticizing your approach in comparing those two cameras at low-light conditions, I'm not questioning your skills or knowledge as a photographer. But the rather the point behind all this work!

Maybe this would be the forth or fifth time I'd be saying this, but those cameras aren't meant for such conditions!
They are meant for either some flash portrait or flash indoors snaps, or just occasional twilights or night shots where some very well lit objects or areas are beeing shot. Dim or widely lit places aren't meant for these cameras!! Simple.
And you suggested that yourself by stating that the two phones are doing bad in such conditions.

And I did post some examples above to somehow clarify this difference. Although those weren't optimal conditions either..

Regarding my blurry snaps, why don't you come pay us a visit in a -5 to -10 temperatures 3 am and stay shooting with two cameraphones hand-held for about an hour or two (half of that time snowing on you) to the extent that you'd keep feeling pain in hands for about half an hour after warming them up good back at home!
You think you'd end up with some steady high-quality photos?

I admit, it was a crazy idea from me to go out like that.. I was over-confident I could pull something useful from both cameras.. I had little time though for that experiment and was frustrated by the weather.
I did pull little things, but definitely it was not worth it..
--
Posted: 2010-12-21 05:55:10
Edit : Quote


@Vit
Those N8 night shots in the above comparison blow away the Satio ones.. i am not sure how you say the Satio pics are better.

I see tons of noise, and an artificial artifact mess when viewing the Satio images at full res.

--
Posted: 2010-12-22 02:27:00
Edit : Quote




Hi, Jake!

To which set are you refering to? I am also not sure about what you mean about artifacts regarding Satio´s shots. I agree that the Satio produces more noise. I would be surprised if it was the other way round.

Anyway, to be honest, I´ve never said which pics were better. I´ve just said that IMO, the Satio performs better in a greater amount of occasions. That´s been written in one of my posts. Regarding the first set of pics, the N8 fares indeed better, but not by a far margin.

Mind you that the N8 has all the tech advantage in the world.

One thing to take i nto account is that the Satio was set @ ISO-500 whereas the N8, with a much bigger sensor and much better optics, was set @ around ISO-350. My point is that its advantage is better seen only when those pics are viewed at full res, which almost never happens, unless you´re a pixel peeper.

Now, what would you say about the flower pics? It´s more than clear that the N8 falls miserably against the Satio.

That was my point. Nokia has put too much post processing for the N8´s high ISO shots, and the result is that it doesn´t perform that good in a great number of occasions.

That was it. It´s not like deffending the Satio no matter what.

Besides, the N8 sensor produces too much noise in dark areas of its high ISO pics.

--
Posted: 2011-01-04 00:03:34
Edit : Quote




All what you observed so far is all true..
However, bad results you say?

One could sum this comparison in few sentences actually! Five to be exact!

Five statements regarding the five situations a cameraphone would be used for:

Daylight, Portraits, Night Portraits, Night shots, and Macros..

Daylight: The N8 exploits the bigger sensor and enhanced optics in comparison to the Satio and leaves the photos as natural as they could get! Almost no noise reduction, and no chromatic post-processing..

Portraits: Color tones are just accurate and natural with incredible detail compared to the Satio.

Night Portraits: Despite the feel of cold results, with the N8 there is no room for over-exposure, and one gets a natural touch as if no flash was used.

Macro: N8 isn't that impressive as the Satio or other cameraphones and compacts. That's due to the AF mechanism it uses through its lens. One could elaborate more on this, but no need to because after all, Macros are of high-quality on the N8..

And to end with our debatable night scene: The N8 goes for higher ISO speeds and limits the SS at 1/5s max and make use of an aggressive but ingenious post-processing algorithm to pull out the most of such low light conditions.
The Satio goes for longer SS, lower ISO as it can't handle high ones anyway, keep the aggressive noise reduction, which leads to some respectable results given the all the hardware limits, but useless photos in general!

Why did Nokia went for such an approach?

- Going for low SSs isn't feasible as no average user could be able to take one steady shots then. Users wont even know why their phones are suddenly acting like that! I'll elaborate on this point further in this post once and for all.
- Even if went for that 1 or even 2 sec SS, a compact camera wont be able to give one correctly exposed night shot!
The photos will still turn up low-quality anyway. Satio's pics are very good examples.
- Why not use the N8's capability of handling relatively higher ISO speeds to correct the exposures a bit, then use the decent optics advantage to implement some clever post-processing to give some brightened up photos imitating a DSLR performance?
By brightening up, even with that well worked out algorithm, chromatic noise gets disturbing actually, but one rests assured to still maintain an undistorted photo at any aspect thanks to the fine hardware.

If you find some controversy in Nokia's approach, as they went for all natural daylight and portrait photos, but heavily post-processed night photos, you have to think again.
Because leaving those night photos natural wont lead to a real natural result. Only some under-exposed low quality ones.

That's the way I see it.. Nokia found some good workaround to that night photography limitation with cameraphones and compacts in general..
Of course, high-end compacts here have the clear advantage over the N8 by setting a manual SSs, ISOs, apertures, and even higher quality optics and sensors..

To end with the SS limitation...
While I already agreed with you that it would been really nice had Nokia went with that algorithm in automatic mode and gave us the manual control to ride that algorithm by setting our own SSs and ISOs, but it isn't easy to deliver at all!

To adjust the algorithm in a way, that it handles automatic settings in certain way, and then handles some manual settings in another, isn't easy to implement at all, specially with that aggressive algorithm.

And since over 95% of the users go for automatic modes, it seems really some fruitless work had Nokia went for it.

Take these examples taken by a friend of mine who owns a Satio:



Look at what potential this scene had, and how did he handle it!!
Just to give an idea of how ignorant an average user is regarding photography.



This one he captured with my own Satio which he bought, as he already gave two other Satios away before it..

I thought we'd capture same photos, he with his Satio, and I with my N8, to compare them later.. I gave him some hints..
But when I looked at the pics back at my PC, I was astonished by the brightness of his photos!
It turned out he forget the Satio in night scene from the previous night!

And I got pissed at Nokia why they reset the setting each time the camera is turned off.
Here's a clear example why!
It's just the average user wont think much of these settings, modes, and combinations..
They'd rather go full automatic..



And here one pic he captured in the summer which made my cry!

This is a legendary scene!! 2000 meters high above sea level, yet one could capture several mountains beneath and the more than 10 kilometers away Mediterranean Sea!!

And look what a horrible photo he ended up with!
And he was shooting in automatic as well.. And Directly into the sun.. And, and....

I managed to pull this little photo out from that:



Breathtaking scene really.. I just wished I was there instead..


Anyway, all those pics you see on Flickr, and on various blogs and sites, how much percentage do they make out of all photos captured by N8 or Satio users?!

There is about 500 users in Flickr's N8 group by now.. Not all delivering some well shot photos..
And there are around 4 millions N8 owners so far!!

You really need to get an idea of what the average use is capable of, all you have is to do is take a look at photos flooding over Facebook and other social networks, and you'd be amazed by the low quality of those, even the ones taken by the best high-end compacts!!

If you are keen into night photography Vit, you must stick to your DSLR. I'm sorry..

--
Posted: 2011-01-04 02:50:59
Edit : Quote




You keep on repeating the same statement: "stick to your DSLR".

Man, you really want to talk like a pro shooter, but the fact is that you know nothing either about APS-C, Full Frame or compact cameras.

A picture says more than a 1000 words. The following was taken with my Sony P200 (a COMPACT CAMERA), back in 2006. Exposure time of 3s. I DID ABSOLUTELY NO POST-PROCESSING FOR THIS SHOT. Even with a darker aperture of f5.6, I still have tons of examples of Exposure Times of around 1.5~5s for the f2.8 aperture. This little camera is capable of 30s of Exposure Time, pal. I guarantee that its results can impress you much more than this sample has.



You may also like to see what my Pixon12 was capable of @ ISO-50 with half a second of exposure time (the Pixon12 is also capable of 1s SS @ ISO-50). Are you still thinking of low quality shots for compacts?






Now, I am sorry for you if you think that your N8 can match these shots, pal...




The thing is that it could match them if it hadn´t been severely handicapped by Nokia with this limited SS and its aggressive post processing for low light shots.

You should stop with your excuses and preconceived statements.

--
Posted: 2011-01-04 16:23:26
Edit : Quote

---

New Topic   Reply

Forum Index