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IN reply to some statements:

1. my understanding is that JAVA runs on it's own chip. I don't know why this would change with K850. The reason you can run java apps running beside phone functions is because they are running on their own chip. Likewise the music player can run while you access phone functions, or while using the camera (also on it's own chip). Since A100 and A200 are not multi-tasking os's they achieve multitasking only for functions that run on separate chips ie not in the main processor. Java itself IS mult-task capable so you can run up to 8 java programs at once.

2. Since java is it's own chip, if it crashes you phone does not. However badly written apps can sometimes cause problems for the phone when they access hardware external to the JVM. Just as with s60, we can't blame Nokia or SE for poor application development.

3. Any crashing issues related to K850 are not JVM issues. The K850 doesn't use a JAVA Menu, java is for applications only. So crashing of K850 or menu slowness are other issues not related to the JVM.

4. 3D apps are indeed better for Nokia which has had the benefit of N Gage development. Java will catch up.

5. JP8 has not brought an increase in boot time. There is a misunderstanding floating around at the moment that the term JP8 refers to the menu and os of the phone. JP8 refers ONLY to the version of the JVM, not to the phone menu or os. The JVM itself runs as a separate hardware function and has no affect on menu or phone performance. It has it's own memory heap and even with 8 java apps running phone performance is not affected. I repeat K850 issues are NOT related to the JVM. They are more likely related to the new A200 OS version.
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Posted: 2007-12-10 01:22:24
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@Max

Well that was quite enlightening as i don't pretend to know a lot about Java as i really have very little interest in it.

So from what you saying all the problems with the K850 and W910 are not Java related but down to the new A200 platform which i must be honest is then even more worrying.

Seeing as it was so long in development does this mean yet again SE have managed to launch an unready OS on it paying customers without sufficient testing and bug fixing prior to launch. As that is what it looks like to me and if so sucks big time.

Marc

_________________
Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER

[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-10 01:16 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-10 02:16:35
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well you can look at it as more worrying if you like, but to me it indicates that it's just because A200 is so new, which means it will only get better.

As you know, I don't expect, nor get frustrated by, OEM's failing to get it right on first releases.

tbh, Nokia do the same thing, though they haven't had as bad examples as the P990 and K850. But they are only two instances of poor readiness. You yourself have admited that until s60 3rd edition Nokia have had issues with stability. You have used this to counter my argument in the past that based on the N70 Nokia os is unstable. I have accepted your argument and now expect better things of s60 3rd edition. Also the recent memory improvements in s60 (demand paging etc) all look very good but how long has it taken Nokia to come up with this? Until s60 3rd edition, it wasn't the UI that put me off but the stablity. Now it's just the UI Why was s60 so crash worthy for so long? Why did it take Nokia all that time to come up with the stability? Honestly I wouldn't have used the N70 for any kind of lengthy period, it would have irritated me no end. The lady I bought it off virtually gave it to me she was so sick of it. She kept her SE K610 instead, even asking me to replace the screen of the K610 which she broken.

Anyway, I'm not trying to take away from your frustration with SE, but personally I still can't accept that SE are so much worse than any other OEM. They ALL use us as guinea pigs, and the more we want the latest and greatest NOW, the more like guinea pigs we become.

Microsoft are the king of this, look at Vista anyone? Or the issues that Windows 95 had on it's first release. But I'm not gonna stop buying Windows. I like windows, but I'm realistic and never pay money for a new version of Windows OS, I ALWAYS wait 6-12 months.

_________________
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[ This Message was edited by: max_wedge on 2007-12-10 02:22 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-10 03:15:16
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AFAIK there is no 'chip' for java,unless you mean something like jazelle,still it occupies only a part of the microprocessor or 'chip'.
Java does not make the phone crash because it runs on something like a sandbox (advantage of VM really).
Im pretty sure there number of apps that can be run simultaneously is >8 for a100,Its the capability of VM that enables the multiple java applications hat run simultaneously.
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Posted: 2007-12-10 05:52:33
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@max_wedge

Well in June 2006 i was introduced to S60 via the N70 and i never found it that bad stability wise just a little slow but moved to a N73 pretty fast but as you say that's a whole other story.

As for Vista i really don't get what some moan about i have had it since February on a Core Duo2 Toshiba Laptop and have zero problems with it, even PC suites that are notoriously flaky have all worked without a hitch. Mind you i think more people like to slate Microsoft then do even Nokia both of which in my experience is usually unfounded.

Marc

_________________
Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER

[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-10 05:01 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-10 06:01:01
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max_wedge:





You have no idea what you talking about. S60 was already stable since the days of 7610/6630. Nokia had sold gazillions of 7610 and there were no major complains like those of K850, P990. N70 was relatively slow but it is not unstable (for generic firmware). I can't say for branded ones. The K750 had more problems when it came out than N70.

[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-12-10 05:34 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-10 06:30:51
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mib, I can't agree, my K750 was 100 times more stable from new than the N70 I acquired even after putting the latest firmware on it. Though I'm sure every user has a different story, the majority of K750's sold where rock steady.

dogmann, about Vista, I'm not dissing it, I like the OS quite alot, but for business users, a lot of business software doesn't run on Vista. I'm not talking Office etc, I'm talking smaller vendors of crucial business software (such as PPMP or EazyHR). Several of my customers simply can't use Vista because their existing client database software won't run on Vista. Sure this is a vendor issue, but my point is that MS release an os that has poor backward compatibility. Whose fault is that, the OS vendor or the software vendor? It might be okay for the average home user, but for many businesses Vista is a mess.

@shyamm335, Java on K800 supports a max. of 8 applications according to SE, but perhaps that's just a guideline. A200 will probably support more than that.

After doing a bit of googling, I think you may be right about J2ME running on the main processor (I can't find any info to say either way), but either way it is sandboxed and is separate from normal processor/memory space.

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Posted: 2007-12-10 07:45:01
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My current k750 is rock stable and it has served me well over 2-3 years. It never visit service centre and software never updated

I agree with Max on Vista at business environment. It is more for home or for less demanding applications/users. All our new laptop and desktop for office comes with WinVista Business. All of them downgraded officially free to XP pro. One day we can upgrade to vista again when all softwares glitches are fixed. Ms acknowledge that many business softwares may have compatibility issues with Vista hence the free downgrade program for Vista Business and Ultimate. Surprisingly not all Ms softwares are compatible fully with Vista.

I have Win Vista for my quad core home desktop and I have no problem with it except it is more resources hungry than xp pro.
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Posted: 2007-12-10 07:59:55
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max_wedge:



100 times is an exagerration . But I agree that your K750 (just like my samsung e700/d600) is more stable than N70. I know many who use the N70 as a "normal" phone dont have issues with it.

I still have my N70 on original firmware and it is very stable. Only issue is if you are playing java game and call comes in, it will reboot. Considering it is a smart OS, I think it will never reach the level of stability of most non-smart.
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Posted: 2007-12-10 08:06:44
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Yeah, that was a little over exaggerated

Truth told I like the N70, but it was the stability and UI that put me off. Somethings I like about it, the video is better than K750 (and I solved the jerkiness problem with a master reset - now it only happens when saving video direct to mem card), the 3G connection works well and the signal is strong and the handset is rugged. I don't like the Keypad, dpad, UI and the slider opens of it's own accord at the drop of a hat But I do have a soft spot for it - it was my first 3G phone and I still use it for buying music with prepaid credit.
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Posted: 2007-12-10 09:09:20
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