News Forum Phone database

> New Topic
> Reply
< Esato Forum Index > Manufacturer Discussion > Nokia > N8 vs Satio - Camera Shootout Bookmark topic



Yes.. And amazingly you're still not getting the point!



I didn't say I'm a pro. What are we trying to do here and what we are discussing doesn't need an expert though!!

And based on what did you come up with that intelligent conclusion that I know nothing about DSLRs and compacts and teh relative sensors..

Dude, photography as a whole is a dummy thing! It's not Nuclear Engineering for heaven's sake!
All teh basics, and I mean all, could be covered by any person in just one week maybe less..
What's left is the experience and teh artistic touch which also referred to as taste or talent.. And in photography this is what matters most.. And I didn't claim I'm a 20 years experienced proffessional photographer. Photography isn't even a hobby for me. I'm just interested in the tech part in this domain.

And believe me even many famous photographers know little about optics and the technical part of a camera!



Did you read this part from my previous post or just read the parts you liked:

"That's the way I see it.. Nokia found some good workaround to that night photography limitation with cameraphones and compacts in general..
Of course, high-end compacts here have the clear advantage over the N8 by setting a manual SSs, ISOs, apertures, and even higher quality optics and sensors.."

And for heaven's sake, could you explain how do you expect from an avarage user, heck any user, to handle a 2 sec SS with the N8 handlheld? Let alone 5 secs!!

There are those electronic viewfinders on the compacts which despite that they're basically useless regadring the true function of a real viewfinder on a DSLR, but they help the user keep the camera fixed to his face while braced by the two hands.. For 1 to 2 secs SSs, this may help by much..

On a cameraphone it's not feasible at all.

Then, you're claiming that the Sony's shot is one high-quality shot.. While it's decent, what do you think a DSLR with same setting would have given? Even low-end DSLRs..

How does that photo compare to the real scene viewed by human eyes?
Maybe one could argue that the user will end up psot-processing that photo to his likings anyway, so what's the need of natural looking photo.. But it remains as a fact, despite that low SSs, even the latest and much praised 1/1.6" sensor equipped LX-5 would still struggle with a real capable camera to come close to giving the real scene.

And I know what disadvantages bigger sensors on the DSLRs have, but regarding night photography which we're debating here, compacts are clearly inferior.



Don't be sorry.. Because guess what, I wont be using my N8 to capture those type of photos anyway..



Not every scene with no sunlight is considered low-light condition!!
What's hard to figure out about that?!



Not excuses. These are facts. The reality which Nokia had to deal with by manufacturing a high-quality cameraphone!
They had to do these compromises! Simple.
It's you're the one going with the wrong device for certain uses!
--
Posted: 2011-01-04 17:26:10
Edit : Quote


High end cameras?!?!

Are you sure you are refering to a Sony P200 as a high-end compact?

Even if it was a high-end, it would still be a high-end compact from 5 years ago. Its sensor is about the same size as the N8´s, at 1/1.8". I presume that the N8, enjoying almost 5 years of tech development, would perform much better than the P200 one.

Now, let´s face your lack of time awareness.

That P200 was a pretty good one for a 2006 compact, but are you really thinking of comparing a DSLR from nowadays to a compact P-S from 2006?

I was definitely not thinking of that when I had the idea os posting that pic. Sorry if you thought so...

Besides, you keep on insisting that slow SS is not a good thing only because it´s not possible to handle those SS with a handheld device.

Your argumentation needs to be more accurate and comprehensive.

First of all, I´ve never said I could handle those Shutter Speeds with a handheld device. I´ve never said it can be done, actually.

Nevertheless, I don´t care about that limitation. Hands have never been a limiting element for my imagination. If yours can only think about handheld shots, I AM TRULY SORRY FOR YOU.

Secondly, and finally, slower SS is a welcome additional feature, not a trade-off feature. That´s a fact.

It´s also funny to see that it´s present in the competitors. Perhaps Nokia (and you!) is the most advanced and wise company on earth to decide to be the only one to cut it from its features list.

Man, I will not argue with you more than I´ve done.

You talk like you work for Nokia, elaborating extensive conclusions regarding why they have selected this or that approach.

I prefer not to speculate on that, I prefer to stick to bare facts and figures, and to what the competition is capable of.

The N8 has been undeniably and deceitfully handicapped. That´s a fact.

And by that fact I really do not see any advantage in having such a big sensor. To me this advantage simply doesn´t show.

--
Posted: 2011-01-04 18:26:34
Edit : Quote


all i know is that I have a tripod for my N8, and I would love to be able to take some long 1s exposure shots.
so saying a slow shutter is worthless because of camera shake is not really a valid point to make.

but to be honest, the only reason I really needed or used a slow shutter speed with my old C905 was to achieve good low light shots which the N8 can already achieve with higher ISO.

Its not a deal killer for me at all, because the positives way outweigh the negatives on the N8 camera for me, and I am not really out a lot shooting light trails on the highway which would require a very slow shutter.

The awesome low light video capability alone makes the N8 a keeper for me.
I can take low light indoor video that i could only dream of with my old video camera.
Hopefully they will add some shutter speed options next update.


--
Posted: 2011-01-04 18:58:38
Edit : Quote




Why are you always and deliberately misinterpreting my posts, giving some funny replies, and then blaming me for repeating teh words more than once?!

I was talking about all high-end compacts. In general. And a high-end remains a high-end, even 100 years later!
Even if a 1$ camera later would outperform it, high-end products remain high-end!

I agree nowadays the compacts lowered the gap by much against the low to mid-range DSLRs.. And already hinted about that in a previous post in this thread actually.

But we're talking about night photography not overall camera performance!!

And you definitely don't need to highlight certain words while typing as I can read well you know!!
You're really an expert in disrespecting you debater!!



Dude, I know you know that! You're just neglecting this fact!!

I would like that option too, and already contacted Nokia encouraging them at implementing it!!

But you, me, Jake, and others who care for such feature, have to bare in mind that we don't count more than 5% of N8 owners!! Ok? Maybe even less than 1%!!

And after all, as I'd prefer to have it, I really wont go out with my N8 only and a tripod at night trying to shoot low SS photos!
This is not the device meant for to do this!

Well, sorry to tell you this, but if I came across one guy putting his N8 on a tripod mid-town, and trying out different shots, I'd laugh my ass out at him!!



This is not true and on different aspects.
Wanna know why, read some more info.. I'm done with this!



Other cameraphones doesn't have this feature. I may have missed some phone out there, but this proves nothing.

Only some mods managed to add this along other features.. But at some expense obviously..

And you can't compare a camerphone to a stand-alone compacts in this aspect, as obviously a stand-alone has much less compromises to deal with!!



Are the night photos posted online not a good proof of N8's high quality so far?!!



It isn't all about night photography you know..
Actually if anything, a cameraphone should be optimized for portraits mainly!!

And teh advantage of the N8's sensor is visible in many aspects, be it video capturing where no noise reduction is implemented at all!!, or still photography where it matches the latest high-end compacts quality at numerous conditions..
--
Posted: 2011-01-04 21:07:48
Edit : Quote




Are you sure you´re not talking about yourself? LOL...



What can I say? First, may I repeat that the P200 has never been a high-end compact?

Even so, your comments regarding your idea of timeless high end devices is just hilarious



Well, I always knew that, pal. Are you talking to your mirror?



Well, disrespect? Sorry, the esato crew should definitely put a warning sign to advert people who use bold characters:

"attention: the use of bold letters are highly offensive".



For the n-th time, are you sure you are not talking about yourself? I thought that it was you the one to neglect the fact that we do not need to always hold the camera with our hands. That´s really odd...



So, why we are still arguing about this? If you find it usefull, too, then we have absolutely nothing to argue about.



Well, less than that percentage cares about the highest sensor ever fitted in a mobile phone. Do you get my point? If they have decided to advertise it as a high end device, even better (in terms of HW) than most compacts, why they have limited its potential like that.

No matter how good it is today. It will always irritate me the fact that it could still be miles better than what it is now.

That´s my gripe, man.

I would like to be able to use its full potential. Nokia should leave up to their users the decision of whether to use lower SS or not.



I do not carry a tripod with me all the time. I never needed to do that.



Well, I really do not care about what you think about that.

When I got my P200, I was in Italy. I´ve got a cheap 5 euro pocket-sized mini-tripod and once I had a guy with a digital reflex alongside me, taking pics of the Vatican @ night. He didn´t have a tripod. I could see him taking a 1000 pics without managing to take one single steady shot. He came across me and he took a look at my pics. He was absolutely stunned by what that little P200 could do with a tripod.

If you wanna take a great shot @ night, you can rest assure that most of the times you will look indeed ridiculous, no matter what you do.



Yeah, I guess you´re right... 1/8s is THE perfect limit for Shutter Speed.

Could you please give me one single reference for that? It should be a really interesting reading.



Yes, you have missed a lot of phones, actually.

The Pixon 12 would shot at ISO-50 with 1/2s of Exposure Time in Auto Mode. It also would shot @ ISO-50 with a whole second of exposure time in its Fireworks Mode.

The Satio does 1s of Exposure Time up to ISO-250+ in its Twilight Mode.

The N8 barely does 1/8s.



This has been answered before. I am not asking for miracles here.


Well, that´s highly arguable.

IMO, they are nothing special and leave much to be desired for a 1/1.83" sensor with Carl-Zeiss Lenses.


Well, for portraits? Where do you got that info from?

Perhaps Nokia should have said that to their customers, don´t you think?



I agree with you on this single statement.

Nevertheless, it´s not balanced by its low light capabilities as it should have been.

--
Posted: 2011-01-07 20:35:22
Edit : Quote




Do you know what I hate most about online forum debates? Debates which were meant to end up fruitful and of high quality discussion but rather ends up in a low level childishness..

Sometimes I intentionally go low level with some ignorant smartasses, but in your case, you're definitely not one of those and I thought we were heading to some decent discussion!

Anyway, only if you use some more respect in your posts we could come out with something useful here!

Putting parts of speech in bold, you know, is meant for highlighting the referenced parts in long articles to help a reader locate those parts without the need to read other useless parts.. That would be an example of applying that feature.
You highlighting some of your own words in a reply, could only be interpreted as you degrading your discussant and hinting that he/she doesn't possess enough comprehension skills to understand and analyze your post!

You failing to get this point and reply with a rather sarcastic comment about "Esato board and the bold feature" made it even worse!!

That's not to mention the use of direct insulting words and the "LOLs" you're obssessed with!
Just go back to your mature form. As to be honest, you're only insulting yourself by such low level replies..



It wasn't a flagship. But it wasn't a cheap low-end camera either!!
And I don't know why are you that much worked out about this specific point. Be it mid- to high-range camera or a flagship, regarding quality, most of the times there is no difference at all.



You missed this point competely!!

No matter what electoric device or product we're talking about.. Be it a digital camera, laptop, graphic card, tv, or whatever, a high-end will always remain a high-quality device that delivered top performace at the time!

Speaking of cameras, a certain of options and quality hardware which were there in decent cameras back then and missing in low-end cameras, are still there in nowadays high-ends and still missing in low-end ones..
End quality went up, but the approach remains the same..

If you had picked a DSLR back then, and shot the same photo, the same huge difference in quality will still be there had you picked up a current Sony high-end and a current DSLR and shot that same photo.. And this is jsut obvious, not speculation!!

Now, you meant that even a five years old digital camera was capable of something the current high-end cameraphone isn't capable of.
So what?

A stand-alone camera was meant for certain uses five years, and still meant for those same uses, and a cameraphone is meant for another uses..

When you blame Nokia for that SS thingy, and label the N8 as incapable whereas is it shouldn't be capable of what you're demanding here, you're being unfair and discrediting Nokia for something they should be rather credited for instead!

As when you compare the N8 with the Satio approach, which gives the user an unusable night mode unless he has a tripod at hand, this should be the approach criticized and discredited!

But do you know why SE went for that rather controversial approach?
Because had they gone with higher ISO to compensate for the lack of slow SS achieving a more realitistic exposure than going with a totally underexposed one, the Satio would have then delivered some low-quality horrific results due to hardware limiations (Sensor and optics).



I didn't mean that tripods should be used exclusively with DSLRs!! Or else you'd look ridiculous!

I was referring to cameraphones in specific!!

As when someone goes out with a tripod, be it at night or at any time, this means he's dedicated to shooting some pro photos.. He planned for that that is and he's going out just to enjoy that activity. And not as a secondary activity.
And to use a cameraphone for that is a bit ridiculous don't you think.
If you're into photography, go buy a stand-alone camera, preferably a decent one, get a tripod, and go out enjoy your time..

The issue is, when you need to take night photos with a cameraphone, you wont have a tripod at your needs at the moment.
But there could be some cases that's it worth it if having a tripod or any similar tool to hold the phone fixed, that you could make use of that option.. That's why adding such a feature would be welcomed. But one can't blame Nokia or any cameraphone manufacturer if they decide not to! This is the point I'm making.

To do it SE's way and go with automated night mode that goes up to 1 second or more SS without the ability to lower it in case you don't have a tripod at the moment is simply stupid.



Should I state every single detail so that I get myself clear enough!!

Writing algorithms to handle different SS speeds on different modes isn't jsut an easy job done in one hour!!
This needs testing, extensive piece of code, and quite an accurate optimization!

If you fail to figure the effort required to do such a task without the need to since less than 1% of N8 owners would use that, then you're being simply ignorant.



You call that a real manual SS setting!!
Those are automated modes for christ's sake!! With some specific post-processing algorithms that go along as well!!
--
Posted: 2011-01-07 23:15:48
Edit : Quote


Well, you talked about disrespect and childness.

Let´s refresh your memory so you can remember who have initiated this series of not-so-kind comments:



Good start, pal!



Who was talking about real manual SS setting?!?!?

I have never written such a thing. Come back and read your own comments before posting.

I have always refered to the availability of SS slower than 1/8s. That was it, and I am repeating it for the n-th time. Please, confirm you have understood this.



So what? Even a compact with manual SS has a specific NR algorithm for slower speeds.

My problem is not with Post-processing, unless it´s aggressive. Not the case with those phones I´ve mentioned, at least for low light shots.

Besides that, all JPEG files have to do with Post-processing.

I guess you cannot write I´ve asked for RAW pictures, can you?

If we can´t get even SS slower than 1/8s, RAW files really seem a thing from another world.



Not at all.

From a far point of view, who can tell the difference between a N8 and a Sony TX7, for instance? The N8 is even larger than the Sony.

That gap between high-end cameraphones and compacts have been narrowed a long time ago.

--
Posted: 2011-01-09 01:53:34
Edit : Quote




Me!

I was actually talking about manual SS setting where you quoted me and replied with the Pixon and Satio argument.
A misunderstanding from both sides, no harm done..



Well, yes.. This seems a topic to be discussed.. Could cameraphones replace compact digital cameras?

Before getting into this.. Just to settle our own debate about the N8-Satio night photography..

Facts:
- Satio goes with low SS (down to 1 sec) when put in nightmode.
- N8 goes for high ISO speeds (up to an average of 800) and limits the SS to minimum of 1/5 sec when put in nightmode.
- None offers full manual settings over SS. N8 offers manual overriding of every available feature, whereas the Satio limits the user control in the automated modes to just handling the EV bias..

As a result, to get the best out of the Satio in such mode, one needs to keep it steady, preferably on a tripod.
To get the best of the N8 in night mode, one could very well keep it handlheld and there is a whole bunch of tweaking options to play with to try and get the best result.

The user experience is very limited by the Satio (and other cameraphones) as one could only shoot acceptable night photos if there is a tripod at hand, while the N8 can't offer a low SS night shot, but does offer a much more flexible and practical approach..

Out of those two approaches, to objectively assess a cameraphone meant for average users who almost know nothing about the photography world, the N8 has the clear advantage!

Even for an experienced photographer, the Satio could only offer a very fully automated night mode where almost no useful tweaks could be made!
Also, even for such a user, there will be no tripod at hand almost all of the time..

What could be enhanced in both cameras, is to offer a full manual mode with full control over SS, ISO, and other variables, and even if possible, implement a variable aperture as well.

However, Vit, to open a thread bashing the N8 for its night photography "limitations" and claim that other cameraphones offer better solutions isn't fair not correct at all.
Simply because no other device offers a better solution or functionality at this aspect!!
You can't call a fully automated night mode where using a tripod is a must a better solution! At least not for the average user that count up to 99% of total owners..

Now, back to the cameraphone vs stand-alone compact topic.

Nokia have committed themselves for a while now to deliver a high-end compact replacement through their cameraphone solutions.
They declared that publicly, and are supposed to be on their way to achieve it.

So, by limiting the user's options to automated modes where the SS is very much limited, as well as no full control ISO and no manual focus nor variable aperture seems they still have a long way to go..

But they are still leading the competition at the moment. So one can't ask them for more. Here lies the problem.
Users could help push them further and demand those implementations and enhancements, but as long as the N8 is the most a cameraphone could deliver at the moment, one has to accept this as a reality.

So at the moment, cameraphones aren't of any replacements for stand-alone cameras so that photography enthusiasts could rely on and use them as primary cameras for all occasions!

Thus, taking a cameraphone and putting it on a tripod seems out of place!
It's still not ready for such usage.

And adding a single feature of changing the SS or lower it a bit in the night mode won't make it a replacement nor make it ready for full dedicated use..

If you think otherwise, elaborate on your idea..

--
Posted: 2011-01-09 04:36:25
Edit : Quote


Would you please stop bitch-fighting and post some more comparison shots?

Thanks
--
Posted: 2011-01-09 06:30:15
Edit : Quote


Agreed. I just unbookmarked this thread.
--
Posted: 2011-01-09 22:28:47
Edit : Quote

---

New Topic   Reply

Forum Index