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@razec and all
Forget about the OMAP 2340 they are old thier life cycle is over, SE especially needs to start getting ahead on the chips it is useing as they are even older generation and well past their sell by date IMO. Next year we will start to see the new OMAP 3 Series chip and with not only improved power consumption but also blistering speeds never before seen in mobile devices 600mhz to 1ghz with enhanced Graphics as well.
This along with the increased Data speeds HSPDA brings and the explosion of Web2.0 and content on the Internet and the rapid development of Social Networking the experience we will be able to achieve on our Mobile devices will be a quality experience.
The massive growth in Data in no longer driven by Buisness users Smart Phones are for everyone as E-Mail and Multimedia devices provide the services users want. Nokia sells more N Series Multimedia devices than E Series Business devices, smart phones are no longer about Word., Excel and purely work applications with a bit of Media thrown in. There is a whole class and range of devices that are aimed at Multimedia first and foremost.
To say if Java has a future or not i really do not know enough about it or have the wish to learn, i have never downloaded and kept a Java app not one. If Java can deliver the user experience many of you say it will then it is no different to any other OS. Again i will say just as there is no one device that is the best for everyone there is no OS either, it is only down to what each user wants and needs and likes that counts. It really is a shame some just can't seem to grasp that personally i just don't get on with WM5 the TyTN i had didn't last a week i just don't like it, maybe WM6 is much better.
I used to love UIQ and a touchscreen but i haven't used it since June 2006 for now i am happy with S60 and no Touchscreen, next year i will see who delivers the latest spec and advancements in a Package i like as things may change. I could get a P5 or a Nokia Touch UI it might even be a 3G HSDPA iPhone it could even be the Google OS devices is that Java?
The whole point is my mind isn't made up before i have seen all the options and definitely not because it is from one brand either. Currently i am curious to see how the Samsung F700 and i450 work out.
Marc
_________________
Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-12 02:20 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-12 03:14:53
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Forget about the OMAP 2340 and the like next year we will start to see the new OMAP 3 Series chip and with not only improved power consumption but also blistering speeds never before seen i mobile devices 600mhz to 1ghz with enhanced Graphics as well.
How about the graphics needs of todays mobile tech? do you think OMAP 3 could manage to deliver us first rate graphics thrttle as well as to outperform Imageon or GoForce High-end Application/Video/Audio/Optical in one CPUs? i really love to see Nvidia/ATI Chips rather than the TI-OMAP 3 sseries youre mentioning
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Posted: 2007-12-12 03:24:54
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@razec
The problem is the Chips you are talking about are not built in the board with the processors maybe for some phones and Os's that will work but it looks like for Symbian devices the OMAP chips ae able to deliver the best all in one solution. It's no secret i am a fan and feel the 3 chip is going to be a big advancement, which is why if SE use the current chip i will find it very disappointing.
Marc
_________________
Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-13 01:18 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-12 03:37:50
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On 2007-12-12 03:37:50, Dogmann wrote:
@razec
The problem is the Chips you are talking about are not built in the board with the processors maybe for some phones and Os's that will work but it looks like for Symbian devices the OMAP chips ae able to deliver the best all in one solution. It's no secret i am a fan and feel the 3 chip is going to be a big advancement, which is why if SE us the current chip i will find it very disappointing.
Marc
_________________
Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-12 02:39 ]
No matey, GoForce 6100 is an all in one chip: it was the Flasgship of the GoForce series and embeeds applications, video, DSP, Mobile TV DVB-H, imaging processor chip in one
ATI has their own version of the 6100 competitor - also an applications processor
maybe for some phones and Os's that will work
that's why i said my previous post regarding the embeeding of hardware codes for those chips to be compatible with Symbian
youre right about OMAP being a very efficient processor chip but why don't we need more power?
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Posted: 2007-12-12 04:05:24
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@razec
Fair enough i just assumed from there name that they were just graphics chip's so what are the other details of the processors are they Arm 9/11 or from another manufacturers design? what are there clock speeds and what else do they support. Actually do you have a link to them and then i can see what else they are capable of myself.
Sorry but your last line has confused me with
"youre right about OMAP being a very efficient processor chip but why don't we need more power?"
We do need more power for the more demanding codec's and processing intensive applications and this is what the OMAP 3 series chips will deliver.
The OMAP 2420 was the most powerful chip when launched in the N93 and the first to enable VGA 30fps Video recording, even now it is still the most powerful chip found in any Symbian device. I really wouldn't say it is underpowered or a poor performer actually the opposite is true. But is now very old and towards the end of it's life cycle.
But the next generation is a big advancement as it has both lower power consumption and greatly increased speed, if the top range chip comes as expected with 1ghz that in a mobile device using 7.2mbps HSDPA. That is going to make for one pretty amazeing mobile user experience especially if you imagine that in a device with say a 3.5" to 4" 16 million colour display.
As i have said before this Year has seen the beginning of the long awaited explosion of Mobile Data but unlike previous expectations of it being Buisness driven IMO it is Multimedia that will drive the expansion and growth of users as now we will be able to replicate an at home user experience whilst mobile from this next generation of devices, interesting times ahead indeed IMO.
Marc
_________________
Nokia N95 8GB, SU-8W, Fring, Vox, Tom Tom 6, Shure EC2g
Honoured to have won BEST DEBATER
[ This Message was edited by: Dogmann on 2007-12-12 13:42 ]
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Posted: 2007-12-12 14:28:58
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Good points dogmann, multimedia is indeed what will drive the consumer market, which ultimately is much larger than the business market.
I think J2me can keep up, as long as the industry supports it. SE have so far had a good track record of first to market with J2me apis and features, hopefully they will keep it up.
The hardware is key, and if SE don't give the adequate hardware, their J2me devices will be lacklustre compared to others.
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Posted: 2007-12-13 00:06:19
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On 2007-12-08 11:13:35, max_wedge wrote:
of course mate, one of my favourite Mobile related subjects
I think J2ME will only get better. Motorola and SE have pushed the j2me envelope steadily over the last couple of years and I think they see it as a legitimate way to give software vendors access to the mobile phone platform without having to extend a native smartphone os to all their range.
I disagree. Motorola have LAGGED J2ME over the years; over extending developer efforts into Linux, Windows Mobile, Symbian.
KD Player although it looks great > is limited by the OS always asking for permissions to view folders (on & on); I cannot stand that. Otherwise great app.
BlackBerry's Non standard RIMlets are based on standard J2ME code (applets). This was necessary by design for intellectual property and also to BOOST security and for provisioning over a data network to open/restrict these devices in the open (outside the company boundaries).
On 2007-12-08 13:26:32, mib1800 wrote:
max_wedge:
In due course, A200 handsets will be powerful enough to run j2me media players capable of decoding on the fly via software, currently it's handled by hardware (whcih is why j2mr players are limited only to handset supported formats)
Well, this archilles heel of java - performance. Today, many native WM/S60 (multimedia/cpu intensive) apps are struggling with performance. If these apps are develop with Java then they will crawl to a standstill. So until the time when cpu speed can outstrip the app needs, imo, Java will still take a backseat. I dont see this happening soon unless we can see big improvement in cpu speed/battery technology.
[ This Message was edited by: mib1800 on 2007-12-08 12:28 ]
Performance is NOT the achilles he'll they way you list it. More complex GUI and formating of fonts and introduction of server+client network capability. GPS, OTA PW resets, looking up server based data (something more complex than TrackID) are just small examples. Also low speed single core and low integer performance cpu's is the TRUE achilles heal. I think performance issues will go away for many years when an OS is designed as a TRUE multi-tasking, multi-symmetric, multi-core cpu enabled unit. Right now ONLY Symbian is heading that road - announced officially any way.
Take not that J2ME is dead when it comes to core code development from Sun Microsystems. They announced this less than 3mths ago.
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Posted: 2007-12-13 01:14:56
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On 2007-12-09 00:19:22, NightBlade wrote:
On 2007-12-08 11:57:01, QVGA wrote:
On 2007-12-08 09:55:13, NightBlade wrote:
Yay! I hate them Symbian and WM OS'es. Too complicated and not as straightforward and good-looking as Java.
too complicated for someone like you, not the other billion population that uses WM and symbian phones.
Whilst java maybe progressing, it will NEVER be an complex and open ended as an OS, otherwise we're talking about WM and symbian becoming endangered!
Through elaborate programming, of course it can! It would be harder but not impossible by all means.
Oh, and just to make things clear, most people want
good-looking and
organized GUI's, unlike Nokia's.Well, OK, you're right, maybe a good 10% of the cell-phone using population does care about installing anything else than games.
NIghtblade, and to anyone ELSE going to post in this intelligent thread; just because YOU PERSONALLY do NOT like an OS' GUI for whatever reason; doesn't mean its not valuable or viable. With Nokia's S60 based devices selling MORE last quarter (effectively increasing market share on a GLOBAL scale by almost 11%) means its SELLING and it IS what ppl as a general consensus are looking for - or the power and advancements it brings. Just remember on the mobile Phone OS ONLY .... and I mean ONLY Nokia's S60 is continuously being refined and adjusted, almost on a per unit (device-to-device Gallery has been changing) case. NOT RIM, NOT Moto's JUIX, not Moto's Synergy, and until recently NOT even SE (before the K850/W910/Z750i the SAME menu system has been there for almost 3yrs, adding a 3G calling feature is necessary but hardly a GUI adjustment). Sure you comments are noted and fair, but I'm providing variances for comparison and widely known data to refute your statement
.
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Posted: 2007-12-13 01:21:01
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On 2007-12-10 01:22:24, max_wedge wrote:
IN reply to some statements:
1. my understanding is that JAVA runs on it's own chip. I don't know why this would change with K850. The reason you can run java apps running beside phone functions is because they are running on their own chip. Likewise the music player can run while you access phone functions, or while using the camera (also on it's own chip). Since A100 and A200 are not multi-tasking os's they achieve multitasking only for functions that run on separate chips ie not in the main processor. Java itself IS mult-task capable so you can run up to 8 java programs at once.
WRONG, you proven this by mentioning about the JVM (java virtual machine) below in statement 5 below. Just because a user can LOAD 8 java/J2ME apps at a time or more (great work SE btw, something I pray S60 will allow for soon), doesn't mean the OS, or the JVM in this case is Multi-Tasking. Example I can load TrackID and tell it to record a sound and look on the db for the songs title/artist etc. Sure if I minimize this app it'll do this in the background. However if I jump to AlphaWing2 (which already loaded) I return to it in PAUSED mode. Same for any other game. I cannot get TrackID to work on my K790a so I cannot test it looking for data on the network while loading a page in Opera Mini4. HOwever I tried loading a page in Opera mini 4 over EDGE and looking in the NetFront browser simultaneous at full strength. Of course I cannot exit NetFront without loosing the browser data, but when that page finished (diff pages of course), Opera was not yet finished. 28Kb page in Opera, 88Kb page in NetFront. I believe SE's JVM pauses Java network querries over core functions that use network querries. That said a BB's OS is Java and its Multi-Tasking. Most apps are queued but its mult-tasking.
On 2007-12-10 01:22:24, max_wedge wrote:
3. Any crashing issues related to K850 are not JVM issues. The K850 doesn't use a JAVA Menu, java is for applications only. So crashing of K850 or menu slowness are other issues not related to the JVM.
is the OS in A100/200 based on C++ code anyway?
On 2007-12-10 01:22:24, max_wedge wrote:
4. 3D apps are indeed better for Nokia which has had the benefit of N Gage development. Java will catch up.
And we all don't want 2D apps with Shading to mimic 3 dimensions, although those do look good lol .
On 2007-12-10 01:22:24, max_wedge wrote:
5. JP8 has not brought an increase in boot time. There is a misunderstanding floating around at the moment that the term JP8 refers to the menu and os of the phone. JP8 refers ONLY to the version of the JVM, not to the phone menu or os. The JVM itself runs as a separate hardware function and has no affect on menu or phone performance. It has it's own memory heap and even with 8 java apps running phone performance is not affected. I repeat K850 issues are NOT related to the JVM. They are more likely related to the new A200 OS version.
TOTALLY agree.
If anyone does NOT believe that a Java OS CAN look good. Ask me for screenshots of a Blackberry Pearl 8100. I believe I posted a few already months ago in the Official BlackBerry Thread. There is a REASON why BB's are the most successful corporate mobile handheld device.
hint its NOT just the BB hardware itself.
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Posted: 2007-12-13 01:39:17
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On 2007-12-11 03:07:25, masseur wrote:
since this has been derailed I'm going to bring this back on track
This is NOT a discussion of which platform is best, which is more stable, which is more (whatever)... this is a discussion of
"The Future of SE's Java Platform", which clearly there will be a future for, even if SE do eventually take windows mobile on board
more specifically this is about...
On 2007-12-08 09:23:06, razec wrote:
now my purpose for creating this thread is for us(J2ME lovers,users,fans) to expect/predict what would be SE's J2ME after JP-8 which currently supports MSA, Accelerometer API and Java binding for OpenGL(3D graphics, the reason why JP-8 phones now support QVGA+ resolution video rec. and better 3D Java games) yeah i'm talking about JP-9! if you ask me, i expect JP-9 to support CDC profile and MIDP 3 as well as many other APIs to be released from Sun's J2ME community
how about you? share us some
J2ME lovers
so please now keep this discussion to just that
@Masseur, while I agree that this thread is NOT about which platform is best, we ALL cannot proceed with intelligent suggestions without comparing what other platforms offer. As essentially we all want functionality, viability of multimedia, and design to improve, not suffer. Thus we'll NEED to discuss what J2ME or CDC is lacking in currently that we will begin to see shortly or what we already enjoy as a community in other platforms - almost & borderline of what platforms is the best; just not quite. Please don't close this thread prematurely if it SEEMS like its a war of which platform is best. Mods will need to carefuly READ each post and see if substantial functions are stated and if SE fans replying wish to have this functionality.
Most importantly though ... I think we ALL need to take a good 30mins - 1hr over at SUN Microsystems site and determine what is offered as a mobile OS; what options & growth and what development coders are offering.
Cheers everyone.
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Posted: 2007-12-13 01:49:02
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